ORCS or Half-Orcs?

[Lord Fyre]

Hopefully they'll get over the 'these are good races' and 'these are bad races' paradigm for regular humanoids and emphasize that the rampaging barbarians might be ANY race at all, even those traditionally thought of as good. In fact the points of light setting concept seems tailor made to do this by emphasizing the barbarian/civilized divide instead of the elf/orc divide.

This would be wonderful. Good & Evil need to be choices, not just convenient lables.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

No it still is. Just it's a kinder more PC D&D.

If it's kinder and more PC, it's not D&D.

Darn bleeding hearts and their prohibition against orc baby killing ...

 

[Desdichado]

Half-orcs! Orcs are the baddies. Fantasy works best when its black and white, not with shades of grey. Let those who want orcs to house rules it. I'd like half-orcs background go more back to its 1e version.

I couldn't possibly disagree more with every single sentence quoted above. Orcs make absolutely fine good guys (or at least "neutral guys") and sources like Warcraft, Heroes of Might and Magic, the Stan Nicholls books, etc. have already paved the way.

Fantasy works best when it more closely mirrors the real world in terms of motivation and character, and leaves the fantastic elements as setting details, or to remove unfortunate real-world connotations from issues.

If there's demand for orc PCs, let those who want to exclude it house rule it. It's easier to house rule exclusions than inclusion in any case.

And thought the 1e background for half-orcs was pathetically cardboard and underthought.

 

[Desdichado]

Are they capital-E Evil? Because if not, then no. The problem with burning down whole villages of "savages" is that they all could be redeemed if you took the effort. That's why I like having Tolkien Orcs as bad guys, instead of the men of Near or Far Harad.

Does anyone have the quote from Faramir (in the movie), when looking at the man he killed in that first ambush where he takes Sam and Frodo captive? Something like "Who was this man? Did he have dreams not unlike my own?" That was the spirit of the quote, anyway.

And if you burned down a village of those guys, you'd have to ask yourself "Could it have been done another way? A better way? A way that did not require the burning of innocents?"

I'm curious; in a non-D&D setting, would you have these same moral ambiguities about attacking Nazis? Would you stop and think that maybe this guy is just following orders, he's not really evil, if I took the time I could convince him to defect, etc.

I'd guess no. To paraphrase whoever it was that said this at the ENnies, having Nazis in your game means never having to say you're sorry for killing them.

And yet, Nazis aren't orcs. They're humans. There's nothing special about orcs that makes them unique in the role of "can kill without compunction just because of who they are." In fact, if anything, their association with an evil philosophy or armed force makes them easier targets for compunctionless killing than their race, not more difficult.

 

[frankthedm]

Technological regression from guns to swords is one thing, but I see no benefit in an equal ethical/moral regression.

To some of us, those concepts go hand in hand. We look at human history, and some spots of our own world, and see that the modern ethical/moral ‘progression’ is the anomaly, not the norm for when swords, axes and bows were the weapons of choice and people believed magic was real.

 

[Lord Fyre]

To some of us, those concepts go hand in hand. We look at human history, and some spots of our own world, and see that the modern ethical/moral ‘progression’ is the anomaly, not the norm for when swords, axes and bows were the weapons of choice and people believed magic was real.

Keep in mind that peoples in those times have some very different ideas on gender roles as well.

But, for some reason, the idea that "all adventurer characters must be male" would not go over so well.

 

[Mighty Veil]

I couldn't possibly disagree more with every single sentence quoted above. Orcs make absolutely fine good guys (or at least "neutral guys") .

Then I want Mindflayers as a core race. They could be based off the Swiss and Maya. They'll be neutral. Known for their strong banks and their interest in calendars and time. Then we can have Half-Flayers too! Male Mindflayers are now very charming and care deeply on the issue of magic and its effects on the weather.

 

[The Merciful]

Then I want Mindflayers as a core race. They could be based off the Swiss and Maya. They'll be neutral. Known for their strong banks and their interest in calendars and time. Then we can have Half-Flayers too! Male Mindflayers are now very charming and care deeply on the issue of magic and its effects on the weather.

Except Mindflayer's very mechanics makes them "I devour brains of sentient beings" type of creatures. You can remove evil (as malicious intent) from them, but you have much harder time making them a non threat. Orcs aren't locked by their stats and mechanics in the same way, and there is variety in their archtypes.

 

[Desdichado]

Then I want Mindflayers as a core race. They could be based off the Swiss and Maya. They'll be neutral. Known for their strong banks and their interest in calendars and time. Then we can have Half-Flayers too! Male Mindflayers are now very charming and care deeply on the issue of magic and its effects on the weather.

OK, so come up with a setting where they are. You'll need to tweak the default flavor obviously, because as it is the only way they can survive is by eating the brains of other sentient creatures. Was that supposed to be sarcastic or something?

 

[Mighty Veil]

Except Mindflayer's very mechanics makes them "I devour brains of sentient beings" type of creatures. You can remove evil (as malicious intent) from them, but you have much harder time making them a non threat. Orcs aren't locked by their stats and mechanics in the same way, and there is variety in their archtypes.

Orcs aren't lock in through an archtype? Mindflayers will eat tofu brains or brains from sheep and cows. Everyone at the pub will order lamb legs, Mindflayer a sheep brain. They should be renowned for their singing too. They could be the bard race.