[OT] National Pride?

[Morrus]

Just a quick note - please keep this from becoming a Europe vs. America argument, or it'll get closed. It hasn't got there yet, but it has veered towards it in a few places.

And now on to the subject at hand....

For what it's worth, I noticed far, far less difference travelling from England to America than I have travelling from just England to France, let alone Italy or elsewhere in Europe. The US just seemed like home but with tips and funny accents; other countries in Europe feel much more different. I think that the language thing outweighs pretty much any other factor when you're talking about cultural changes between countries.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I'm from Germany, and the cultural variations within Germany itself can be vast.

Naturally, there are historical reasons for this. Up until the middle of the 19th century, Germany was composed of more than a hundred tiny kingdoms, baronies, and city-states. The borders shifted all the time. Vast regional differences in dialects exist. Today, Germany is composed of 16 Länder or states, 4 1/2 of which were under communist rule until 13 years ago.

And of course, Germany itself is changing
all the time. The nation is still trying to recover from the shock of WWII. "Patriotism" is still considered a dirty word by many, many people, which is why the German army can't get enough people without resorting to drafting them (incidentally, I was drafted last Thursday... I'm currently home for the weekend).

Near the end of WWII, millions of Germans (who had lived there for many generations) had to flee from former German territories or be raped and/or killed by the approaching Sovjet army. They settled all over the boundaries of the modern German nation. But that's not the last population change in Germany - since the 1950, millions of immigrants from Mediterranean nations have settled here and raised families. Today, more than threee million people of Turkish descent alone live in Germany.

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on immigration, or diversity within it's borders. And Germany is changing itself all the time - but no one knows in what way the nation will change in the future...

 

[Dinkeldog]

cf, I'm going to try to do this diplomatically, which is going to be difficult because I think your postings are the most politically charged.

On second thought, after trying for 30 minutes, I just came up with some kind of overly-political statement myself. I'd recommend Nutkinland, but I guess the shortform is to look at the visible displays since the World Trade Center attacks. I almost think you'd have to wilfully ignore those to see no displays of Nationalism in the US.

That's Okay. I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me... or with each other, for that matter. I just wanted to learn a little bit about what other people's perceptions are.

My perception while I was in Europe was that I was... hmmm... don't know how to explain... when I was in England, I FELT like I was in England. Everything from the tube, to Buckingham, to the fields and the trees, and the pubs... ah! The pubs! America has "hangouts", sure. Arcades for video gamers. Skate parks for skaters. Back alleys for derelicts. Sports bars for jocks. Coffee shops for, uh, coffee shop people. But in Britain, no matter who you are, you've got the pub. A place where anyone can go and be part of what it is to be British. DISCLAIMER: That was the overall feeling I got, and that was my perception. I'm not saying "that's the way it is". I'm just saying that I liked the way it felt. Like no matter how different you are, you're still part of the same community. It's the "sameness" that attracts me.

Here, with all the cultures that we're "embracing", it seems to me that it's all about celebrating our differences. I don't, personally, want all my differences pointed out. I want to be PART of something, and that means "sameness". That's why my family is so important to me. We're close because, not so deep down, we're the same.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

On second thought, after trying for 30 minutes, I just came up with some kind of overly-political statement myself. I'd recommend Nutkinland, but I guess the shortform is to look at the visible displays since the World Trade Center attacks. I almost think you'd have to wilfully ignore those to see no displays of Nationalism in the US.

Definietly different from Germany. You might see the national flag on some public buildings on Reunification Day (our national holiday), but that's about it. Putting the German flag up in your garden or hanging it from your window will get you some very odd looks...

 

[drothgery]

For all the people refuting my arguments - think about the meager distance I have to travel to get completely culture shocked. (edit) within (/edit) 1 hour of flying and I can expose myself to 12 vastly different cultures.

National boundaries tend to be pretty effective at making cultural differences sharp instead of gradual (not always; Canadians [excepting Francophone Quebec residents] often have more in common with the Americans across the nearest border than other Canadians in different parts of the country). California to Texas is pretty significant; California to Arizona, Arizona to New Mexico, and New Mexico to Texas are all less so.

 

[cthuluftaghn]

cf, I'm going to try to do this diplomatically, which is going to be difficult because I think your postings are the most politically charged.

Sorry. I'll shaddup then. I'm not trying to be politically anything. I don't consider myself to have any political views really. I was just trying to describe my perception of things, and I tend to use lots of dramatic wording, so maybe I came out sounding "politically charged".

 

[twobadcats]

National boundaries tend to be pretty effective at making cultural differences sharp instead of gradual (not always; Canadians [excepting Francophone Quebec residents] often have more in common with the Americans across the nearest border than other Canadians in different parts of the country).

Oh not at all!

Even English-speaking Canadians tend to be much different from Americans, especially in political attitudes. There is a whole different take on individual versus collective responsibility and the roles of citizens and government.

Canadians have decriminalized marijuana now, along with an attitude that smoking it is not a big deal. Some places in the U.S., people think this is among the worst things you could do.

 

[drothgery]

Oh not at all!

Even English-speaking Canadians tend to be much different from Americans, especially in political attitudes. There is a whole different take on individual versus collective responsibility and the roles of citizens and government.

I really don't think a stereotypical resident of Vermont or Massachusetts would argue much with a typical resident of Nova Scotia, though a New Hampshirite would.

YMMV, but I think typical residents of Vancouver and Seattle have more in common than typical residents of Vancouver and Toronto. And Niagra Falls, Ontario is certainly a lot more like Niagra Falls, NY than San Diego, CA is.

 

[twobadcats]

I really don't think a stereotypical resident of Vermont or Massachusetts would argue much with a typical resident of Nova Scotia, though a New Hampshirite would.

YMMV, but I think typical residents of Vancouver and Seattle have more in common than typical residents of Vancouver and Toronto. And Niagra Falls, Ontario is certainly a lot more like Niagra Falls, NY than San Diego, CA is.

I think there may be some truth to that, at least with regard to similarities between some American regions and some Canadian ones.

There aren't Canadian areas that corresponded to several American regions (notably the South), nor are there American regions that correspond to some Canadian ones (i.e. Quebec).

 

[Rashak Mani]

Nice that this thread hasnt come down to nation and politics bashing.

I do have to say that people who have never ever traveled outside their Country are missing out in a lot. In fact I feel that people that never got out of their "native environment" (that could include Texans going to the north I suppose) will more likely be limited in their views of the world and understanding of different people and themselves.

Even a touristy visit to another country opens ones mind to diversity and shows you there is so much more than your own belly button out there. You might actually LIKE your country more for it too. I myself have lived all over the world... but no matter what I always feel more at home back in Brazil. Some cultures are so different from ours we actually get to appreciate our own a little more... we appreciate going back home that bit more...

I have noticed that most people I befriend have lived abroad or travel frequently... its some kind of higher level of understanding that comes with knowing more about the world "outside". Many that havent traveled somehow seem less aware of things. Of course many people due to reading or TV get some of this too....

In the end... culture and food might vary... ideas and sheer stupidity varies a lot by country... but humans are humans everywhere. They just need to feel safe, loved and have food to eat. Different but not that much...

(As for the American Culture vs European Culture debate... its a bit like comparing apples and oranges. USA is like Brazil a new country... with only so much history behind it. I prefer Europe... but its still a coward comparison. )