over powered classes, a thought

[guardianfallenangel]

Recently my dm was complaining about some classes, namely the dragon shaman, being overpowered due to the auras and breath weapon. My question is, in all honesty the rouge seems over powered.. heres why... correct me if i'm wrong, but what other class gets to roll 30d6 worth of damage dice in one round??? A 20th level fighter will be doing what 1d10+str. 4 times in a round if he hits all attacks. A rouge will be doing weapon damage+str. 3 times and 10d6 damage on all attacks, assumeing the creature is subject to sneak attack.

give each a str. of 10, no modifier.

The fighter does between 4-40 pnts. of damage, assumeing a 1d10 weapon

The rouge does between 33-192 pnts. of damage, assumeing a dagger

just a thought....

 

[Aus_Snow]

Uh, have you actually played a 20th level Fighter or Fighter/something (or the equivalent) in D&D 3e? Or seen one played? Or even looked at a fully statted-out character sheet for one?

I've only seen them (not played one) but wow, they sure can deal out the damage. Pretty much more consistently than most other classes / combos, as far as I can tell.

Factor in BAB (they'll hit more often), stat increases (and where they're likely to go), magic items (and what they're likely to be), feats (and what they're likely to be, and how *many* combat-oriented feats there will be in the case of Fighter or Fighter/x), likely weapon types (more damage again), and it becomes instantly clearer.

Sneak Attack is highly conditional. Defensively, in certain areas (i.e., not AC, HP or Fort saves), Rogues are stronger. And they can be nasty if the sneak attack ability works in a given situation. But still.

 

[Agent Oracle]

Ditto for Wizards (save... or DIE), Clerics (Same), Druids, Sorcerers, Monks... heck, at 20th level, even the oft-maligned bards are nigh unstoppable.

Just, y'know, by 20th level, EVERYBODY is godlike in terms of what they can do

I mean, there's a disadvantage to the whole sneak attack thing: that being that their 30d6 thing doesn't work on constructs, the undead, certain spell-casters (who have the good old "this divination spell negates surprises" in play), or anyone wearing fortified armor.

Don't get me started on the Knight, which can fight beyond death for several minutes at 20th level. (does not KO if below 0, does not die at -10 as long as it has Challenges left to spend)

Overall, the dragon shaman isn't that powerful. I has auras that do middling effects (At lower levels the fast healing up to half HP isn't really that effective, and at higher levels it's overshadowed by clerical healing) and the breath weapon is no different from that gained by a dragon disciple PRC, or the Half-dragon race. I have one in my playgroup being played by the power gamer (self-confessed, though I've broken him). it's balancing pretty well with everyone else.

 

[Nifft]

This particular strawman is a bit thin.

Fighter with strength 10? Whose 20th level tactic is to swing a sword four times in a round for direct damage? Like, gag me with a spiked chain, dude.

-- N

 

[Cadfan]

I don't know where you got 30d6, but lets pretend that's right. Remember that it is reflex for half. Average damage is 105, save for half of that. If there's a 50/50 chance of making the save, that makes the damage average out at 78.75. In the following rounds, no breath weapon because of the delay and because I assume this is with a metabreath feat.

Level 20 fighter will be doing, if he's a longsword user,

1d8+str+weapon enhancement+any bonus damage from the weapon+weapon specialization+more weapon specialization+melee focus slashing.

That's going to be, at level 20, about
1d8 +8 strength +5 enhancement +1d6 flaming maybe +2 +2 +2. I'd expect the total to be about 1d8 +1d6 +17. Average damage would be 25. Four attacks in a full attack, and on the rounds the dragon shaman is recovering his breath, you can still attack.

And come on. Give each a strength of 10? Great comparison there. Lets use it for other classes. We'll compare level 20 wizards to level 20 fighters. Each gets an intelligence of 8.

 

[pawsplay]

If you want to be able to point to this thread and convince your DM to tell you play a Warblade, you're going to have to try a bit harder.

 

[ZSutherland]

Well, but your assumptions are skewed in favor of the rogue. It's pretty irrational to assume a fighter with a 10 strength, especially at high levels. Strength is a primary stat for fighters, just as dexterity is a primary stat for rogues. The more accurate way to look at would be as follows.

Assume that each character started with a 15 in their primary stat at level 1 (str for fighter, dex for rogue) and a 14 on their second primary stat (con for fighter, int for rogue). The fighter places a 12 on his dex, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say the rogue puts his 12 on str instead of wis or cha. At level 20, each has a base 20 for their primary stat from attribute increases by level. You used 1d10 for the fighter's weapon, and we'll assume he has exotic WP just to get rid of his 1.5 str bonus for two-handing it, and the rogue has weapon finesse. The rogue has a dagger. Just to keep things simple, they're both +5 cold-iron weapons and aligned for good. The fighter would just be an idiot to not have WF and WS for bastard sword. Also, both have a +6 stat inflating item for their primary stat (final stat 26). We'll assume no crits, since that's more favorable to the rogue.

Now we pit them against a Balor (CR20). He has an AC of 35. So, on a full attack action, the fighter has 4 attacks around at +34/+29/+24/+19 for 1d10+15. Assuming he has the flank so your rogue can have sneak attack, only the last attack is likely to miss more often than 50% of the time. I've broken down damage from each attack as an average of his damage roll times the % chance to hit.

Full attack = 19.475 + 17.425 + 12.3 + 7.175 = 56.375 average damage for a full attack.

The rogue has a +28/+23/+18 for 1d4+6 + 10d6. Still assuming the flank, his full attack breaks down as follows:

Full attack = 34.8 + 21.75 + 10.875 = 67.425 average damage for a full attack.

Admittedly, the rogue is doing better, but not much better and we did make some favorable assumptions on his part. Of the two of them, the rogue is the least capable of withstanding a return full-attack from the Balor (lower hps and AC) and has just made himself the more likely target. Not to mention that we didn't account for the rest of the fighter's feats or the fact that the rogue's damage output is fully contingent on getting the sneak-attack. If he's denied it for any reason (e.g. balor's in a corner so can't be flanked), his damage output goes to (5.95 + 3.4 + 1.275 =) 10.265 while the fighter's output remains at a respectable (19.475 + 15.375 + 10.25 + 5.125 =) 50.225.

I'd say the fighter's greater survivability and his consistent damage balances out with the rogue's relatively squishy body and situational damage.

 

[Darthjaye]

And the Rogue gets screwed versus a lot of creatures who are immune to crits and sneak. Then factor in that at 20th level it's highly possible that the fighter (not to mention anyone else) has invested in something with fortification (the fighter would most likely invest in something with higher % than the others, hosing the rogue even more and making the fight completely unbalanced)

The damages for a fighter get even more insane if he (like most percentage of fighters will) takes Power Attack and just simply tosses about 5 or so points into damage. Stack that on your numbers per a hit and it really hurts.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Dragon Shaman, overpowered?

Most people have correctly jumped on the fighter strength 10 bandwagon. But let's also not forget the original question. Dragon Shaman overpowered? The one thing that it does really well is keep people from dying. But without magic, it doesn't keep them above 1/2 HP very well, either! Yes, auras seem like a bit overpowered because they're always on.

But then again, what if we called all class abilities. The rogue gets a sneak attack aura, so that whenever the defender is flanked or denied its DEX the rgue can sneak attack. The paladin can detect evil at will, so its kinda like an aura of Detect Evil. Druids get pass without Trace, so that's kinda like an Aura of Pass Without Trace.

Now, I realize that some of these comparisons aren't strong, and you can certainly take this train of thought too far. But the dragon shaman is not broken. No more so than the warlock. And that thread is over one forum I believe!

 

[Hammerhead]

Really, the Dragon Shaman is a great NPC class. Especially in groups, when they all have different elemental damage shield auras running supported by a few dozen mooks. Sick...