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over powered classes, a thought

my point being about damage dice rolled, a rouge gets +10d6 to each of his 3 attacks, thats 30d6. and the reason i said 10 in the stats wasn't to get everyone into a hissy fit, it's the same reason i didn't worry about magical equipment or feats that add to damage. i'm talking about what the dice roll, 4 d10 vs. 3d?? +30d6....

i'm just wondering how most of the classes that get labled as "overpowered" match up to a class that no one ever questions.
 

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Darth Shoju

First Post
guardianfallenangel said:
my point being about damage dice rolled, a rouge gets +10d6 to each of his 3 attacks, thats 30d6. and the reason i said 10 in the stats wasn't to get everyone into a hissy fit, it's the same reason i didn't worry about magical equipment or feats that add to damage. i'm talking about what the dice roll, 4 d10 vs. 3d?? +30d6....

i'm just wondering how most of the classes that get labled as "overpowered" match up to a class that no one ever questions.

Well like was stated, that Sneak Attack damage can't be counted on like a fighter's damage. There's too many conditions where it can't be applied (opponents immune to crits, can't catch them flat-footed or flanked). Also in my experience, the big limitation of the rogue is staying alive the round after deliverying the sneak attack damage.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
guardianfallenangel said:
my point being about damage dice rolled, a rouge gets +10d6 to each of his 3 attacks, thats 30d6. and the reason i said 10 in the stats wasn't to get everyone into a hissy fit, it's the same reason i didn't worry about magical equipment or feats that add to damage. i'm talking about what the dice roll, 4 d10 vs. 3d?? +30d6....
Sure. So you are intentionally using out-of-context elements of a game to illustrate something about the game as a whole? Hm.

i'm just wondering how most of the classes that get labled as "overpowered" match up to a class that no one ever questions.
Oh, I'd say it's been questioned. Just a bit. Priior to 3e's release, if never since (which is stupendously unlikely).
 


Remathilis

Legend
guardianfallenangel said:
Recently my dm was complaining about some classes, namely the dragon shaman, being overpowered due to the auras and breath weapon. My question is, in all honesty the rouge seems over powered.. heres why... correct me if i'm wrong, but what other class gets to roll 30d6 worth of damage dice in one round??? A 20th level fighter will be doing what 1d10+str. 4 times in a round if he hits all attacks. A rouge will be doing weapon damage+str. 3 times and 10d6 damage on all attacks, assumeing the creature is subject to sneak attack.

give each a str. of 10, no modifier.

The fighter does between 4-40 pnts. of damage, assumeing a 1d10 weapon

The rouge does between 33-192 pnts. of damage, assumeing a dagger

just a thought....

Rouge is completely overpowering. I think a nice facial powder would work alot nicer. More natural, IMHO. ;)
 

Rogues are too weak to be overpowered. IME, the combination of low Fort and Will and not so great hit points makes them too weak.

When I was DMing DnD, rogues died all the time. Funny things is, they all died in different ways. Only one got killed scouting, for instance (the creature had scent, great speed, etc).
 

Lord Pendragon

First Post
guardianfallenangel said:
i'm just wondering how most of the classes that get labled as "overpowered" match up to a class that no one ever questions.
I'm still trying to decide whether or not you're serious, but I suppose I can humor you for a bit.

A rogue can indeed roll more damage dice than other classes. If the rogue had equal attributes in all other areas, and could consistantly deal out that level of damage, it would indeed be overpowered.

Fortunately, there are a lot of mitigating circumstances you are ignoring in your comparison.

* Rogues are more frail than fighters. A rogue that stands next to the Big Bad to deal out 30d6 had better kill it, because the counterattack will likely kill him.

* Rogues are less accurate than fighters. They don't always HIT with all those extra damage dice. A 20th-level fighter is likely to have a to-hit bonus of at least +7 better than the rogue's (Weapon Focus, GWF, and +5 BAB).

* Rogues get less attacks than fighters. 3 to the fighter's 4, in fact, unless they go the TWF route, which has it's own issues (such as increased to-hit penalties, and having to make a full attack to gain a benefit, which brings us back to that frailty issue.)

* Rogues need specific tactical circumstances in order to enable their sneak attacks. Flanking is dangerous (that darned frailty again) and ranged weapons can only be used in the surprise round unless additional effort is expended to become invisible, re-hide, etc.

* Rogue bonus damage dice are outright negated by certain enemies including undead, constructs, and humanoids wearing fortified armor.

In essence, while a rogue can indeed reach a high number of damage dice, that damage potential is balanced by a number of significant drawbacks that keep it in line with other balanced classes.

Why are other classes considered overpowered when the rogue mostly isn't? Because some other classes have significant advantages without any appreciable drawbacks.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
Lord Pendragon said:
Why are other classes considered overpowered when the rogue mostly isn't? Because some other classes have significant advantages without any appreciable drawbacks.
Heh, and a bunch of PrC's (and Warblades) seem to be the current favourite candidates there.
 


I guess I was just trying to illustrate a point that if you look at any class wanting to see it as "broken" somthing will jump out at you. Rogue was just the one that I picked do to the fact that there are alot of dice involved.

Mostly do to the fact that my dm, while a terrific dm, has a habbit of looking at classes (i.e. dragonshaman, dragonfire adept) and thinking they're overpowered because they can do a number of different things.

For the most part the classes that I've seen (haven't seen warblade) seem pretty balanced. I just wanted to see if I could convice anyone else of what I was thinking.
 

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