Paladin's Challenge Question

[James McMurray]

Nope, because I'm not saying that "before the end of your turn" is a "rolling deadline" under normal circumstances. I'm saying that it's the case here because the power specifically includes rules for maintaining/resetting itself at the end of every round, as long as you take the proper actions (engage the target and do not mark someone else).

But the power doesn't say anything about resetting itself, or about any turns beyond your next one. How does it specifically include those rules?

 

[Kordeth]

But the power doesn't say anything about resetting itself, or about any turns beyond your next one. How does it specifically include those rules?

Because as long as the target remains marked by Divine Challenge, the damaging effect stays in place. ("While a target is marked...Also, it takes radiant damage...") Since you check to see whether the marked condition ends on your turn, it makes perfect sense to also link the damage the target suffers to your turn.

 

[Gloombunny]

Nope, because I'm not saying that "before the end of your turn" is a "rolling deadline" under normal circumstances. I'm saying that it's the case here because the power specifically includes rules for maintaining/resetting itself at the end of every round, as long as you take the proper actions (engage the target and do not mark someone else).

The entire power has to be read as an aggregate to get my interpretation, and I'll be the first to agree that it could've been phrased better. But it's still there to be read.

Hm... I can kind of see that interpretation. You're saying that "your next turn" means the paladin's next turn after the victim takes radiant damage, rather than the next turn after the mark is applied. And that the "Also" is meant to attach the radiant damage clause to "While a target is marked", rather than to "You mark the target". Which is somewhat supported by the paragraph division. Interesting! I find that now that I've looked at the text that way it's hard to not see it that way.

On the other hand, I kind of doubt any of us would have come up with that interpretation if we didn't already know from the D&DXP version and simple sense that the mark is supposed to damage once per turn.

 

[Lurker37]

Of course, I don’t know why they didn’t just say…
“Also, once per round, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier when it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as the target”

That's easy.

Let's take an example where The initiative order is striker, paladin, enemy.

Round X: The paladin Divine Challenges (DCs) the enemy and attacks it (ensuring the mark does not expire before the paladin's next turn). On the enemy's turn it attacks the striker. The DC inflicts damage.

Round X+1: On the striker's turn the enemy either gets an OA or uses an interrupt against the striker. Under the current wording DC cannot damage the enemy, since the paladin hasn't had another turn since the last time DC did damage. However, under your proposed 'once per round' wording DC inflicts damage again, and can not inflict damage again this round. This means that when the enemy gets their main attack later this turn there is no longer the threat of damage from divine challenge hanging over them to deter them from using their more powerful attack on one of the paladin's allies.

So changing the wording can change how effective the power is as a deterrent.

Hm... I can kind of see that interpretation. You're saying that "your next turn" means the paladin's next turn after the victim takes radiant damage, rather than the next turn after the mark is applied. And that the "Also" is meant to attach the radiant damage clause to "While a target is marked", rather than to "You mark the target". Which is somewhat supported by the paragraph division. Interesting! I find that now that I've looked at the text that way it's hard to not see it that way.

No, you're confusing the rules for duration with the rules for how often damage can be applied. Nothing in the duration rules mentions next turn.

Here are the rules for how long the Divine challenge remains on the target. (Quotes taken from the D&DI Compendium)

You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.

"Next turn" isn't mentioned. In fact, turns aren't mentioned at all.


The next paragraph is the the rules for the damage: (truncated to avoid copyright infringement, I hope. The removed text pertains to the amount of damage.)

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to ... the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn. ...

This is the part we're arguing about - whether this is recurring damage throughout the encounter or not. Playtester experience and reports from DDI say it's recurring damage. The first attack part is, I believe, there to indicate that the paladin cannot choose which attack triggers the DC damage - it's always triggered on the first 'infringement'.

And here are the rules for engaging the target, mentioned in the first paragraph as being necessary to maintain the effect. Note that here we have rules regarding the paladin's current turn.

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

So if a paladin ends a turn without either having attacked the DC'd target or standing next to it, the effect ends. If the paladin has DC'd another target, they have to also attack or end up next to it instead, and the first target is no longer marked or under the other effects of DC.

Oh, and since the power is not 'Sustain: Minor" we know the paladin does not need to re-DC the marked target each round.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

That's easy.

Let's take an example where The initiative order is striker, enemy, paladin.

Round X: The paladin Divine Challenges (DCs) the enemy and attacks it (ensuring the mark does not expire before the paladin's next turn). On the enemy's turn it attacks the striker. The DC inflicts damage.

Round X+1: On the striker's turn the enemy either gets an OA or uses an interrupt against the striker. Under the current wording DC cannot damage the enemy, since the paladin hasn't had another turn since the last time DC did damage. However, under your proposed 'once per round' wording DC inflicts damage again, and can not inflict damage again this round. This means that when the enemy gets their main attack later this turn there is no longer the threat of damage from divine challenge hanging over them to deter them from using their more powerful attack on one of the paladin's allies.

So changing the wording can change how effective the power is as a deterrent.

I don’t think I understand your point. In your example, if the paladin is last in the order on Round X, how does the Enemy have an attack in round X? Enemies next attack would be in round X+1 and the damage is dealt by the DC due to the OA or Interrupt and then not again from the Standard action on the Enemies turn. If it’s “once before the Paladin’s next turn” or “once per round”, I don’t see the difference.

 

[Cabral]

I don’t think I understand your point. In your example, if the paladin is last in the order on Round X, how does the Enemy have an attack in round X?

I think he made a typo. Lurker37's example works if the initiative order is Striker, Paladin then Enemy.

By the way, I stumbled upon the answer to earlier question. Marked is a condition described in the Combat Chapter (a reference should be made in the Divine Challenge ability and it should have an index entry). Marked targets suffer -2 to hit creatures other than the creature that marked them.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

I think he made a typo. Lurker37's example works if the initiative order is Striker, Paladin then Enemy.

Thank you, that makes perfect sense.

EDIT: I think it would have been worth it to make the language less confusing.

 

[Calidarien]

I know I'm swimming against the current here (against the majority, the playtesters, etc.), but I am of the opinion that the radiant damage part of Divine Challenge only fires once (if that), at least RAW. Here's my reasoning:

"You mark the target. ... While a target is marked, ... Also, it takes radiant damage ..."

The sentence that starts with "While a target is marked ..." seems to simply be explaining what the first paragraph meant by marked as a status condition. The next sentence is difficult to read as "Also, [in addition to the attack roll penalties] it takes radiant damage ..." because that is not a part of the status condition of being marked. Rather, it makes more sense (to me) to read it as "Also, [in addition to being marked by this power] it takes radiant damage ..." (In fact, if we excise the "While a target is marked ..." sentence completely since it is redundant if PHB p.277 is tattooed in your brain, then my reading becomes even more defendable.) Thus, in my reading, the radiant damage has a chance to trigger only up to the start of your next turn after the Divine Challenge, and not after that.

Furthermore, the ending clause says that if you don't satisfy certain conditions, then "the marked condition ends". Note that it does *not* say "the marked condition and the ongoing chance of radiant damage end". Read literally, that means that the only effect that was ongoing (and could thus end) was just the target having attack roll penalties from being marked.

Admittedly, my reading is a little tortured, but I believe that the "once a round" interpretation is worse off because it has to work around the words "before the start of your next turn". I would *love* there to be crystal-clear errata on this issue, but until then, I'll probably house-rule it my way.

 

[Gloombunny]

I would *love* there to be crystal-clear errata on this issue, but until then, I'll probably house-rule it my way.

I agree that it's confusingly worded, but I really think you should rule that it's once per round regardless of what seems more RAW to you. Once per challenge just sucks for the poor paladin player.

 

[Lurker37]

I think he made a typo. Lurker37's example works if the initiative order is Striker, Paladin then Enemy.

D'oh! So I did! Fixed.