Paladin's Challenge Question

[Lucas Blackstone]

Divine Challenge is the name of the power. Do you mean you didn't apply the second half of the effect of Divine Challenge? Or am I misunderstanding your statement? At any rate the marking and the other half of the challenge ( the damage portion) are linked by the word also. They are all one effect. That is what the word also does. It's a "connector".

Edit:Sorry, was replying to the pre-edited post I think.

 

[SableWyvern]

Divine Challenge is the name of the power.

They're talking about Piercing Smite (Lvl 1 Encounter), which marks targets, but does not necessarily place Divine Challenge on them.

Personally, I'd tend towards ruling that any target marked by a Paladin suffers the effects of Divine Challenge (just like all a fighter's marked targets suffer from Combat Challenge).

 

[James McMurray]

Actually, while I agree the power is phrased a little awkwardly, I think it says exactly what it means to say. The OP quoted it like this:



But I'd suggest the problem is that he's isolating only part of a single thought. Look at it like this:



In other words, you have to keep the "before the start of your next turn" restriction in mind, not just the "first time" restriction.

Then, since the power gives rules for maintaining it round after round, that obviously becomes a restriction that applies each round, before the start of your next turn.

As I said, awkwardly phrased, but I think the rule is there as intended, if you read it right.

The problem with that interpretation is that it means that there are now many powers with infinite durations. If "your next turn" resets every turn, then anything that ends "at the end of your next turn" or "at the end of the target's next turn" will never end.

I don't doubt that they intended for it to repeat the damage once per turn, but the wording doesn't support it. Unfortunately, if they stick to their promise we won't be seeing errata for another month or more, and according to reports, customer service has given both answers. Maybe a Sage Advice will grace us with knowledge.

 

[Shabe]

The problem with that interpretation is that it means that there are now many powers with infinite durations. If "your next turn" resets every turn, then anything that ends "at the end of your next turn" or "at the end of the target's next turn" will never end.

I don't doubt that they intended for it to repeat the damage once per turn, but the wording doesn't support it. Unfortunately, if they stick to their promise we won't be seeing errata for another month or more, and according to reports, customer service has given both answers. Maybe a Sage Advice will grace us with knowledge.

I think your concerns are alayed by the fact that the end of your next turn is refering to the damage divine challenge kicks out, and when it talks about the duration of divine challenge is says

"You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place."

 

[Ibixat]

Can we agree that by RAW a holy avengers bonus to radiant damage attacks counts when divine challenge causes damage to a target, the power has the radiant keyword.

 

[GoLu]

Can we agree that by RAW a holy avengers bonus to radiant damage attacks counts when divine challenge causes damage to a target, the power has the radiant keyword.

Probably not. You don't use your holy avenger to attack when you place a divine challenge on someone. Not only does divine challenge use neither implement nor weapon, but the holy avenger radiant damage bonus is worded, "a holy avenger deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage when the power you use to make the attack has the radiant keyword". And a divine challenge isn't even an attack.

 

[Ibixat]

Hmm I read differently then.

From the weapon itself, I read the property as being when a holy avenger is equipped.

Property: A holy avenger deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage

when the power you use to make the attack has the radiant​

keyword.
​

Ok reading more I think I see where I'm wrong

Property

Some magic items have a special property that is constantly
active (or active under certain conditions). A
property doesn’t normally require any action to use,
although some properties allow you to turn them off
(or on again).
When you’re wielding a holy avenger, all your radiant
powers deal extra damage when you use the
weapon to deliver them. You don’t need to turn this​

property on or off.
​

Ok and since divine challenge is neither a weapon or implement based "attack" it doesn't benefit, I would argue that if it had keyword implement though that it would in fact add the bonus damage from the HA.

Well ok, I guess that clears up that mistake in my head =)

Thanks

 

[James McMurray]

I think your concerns are alayed by the fact that the end of your next turn is refering to the damage divine challenge kicks out, and when it talks about the duration of divine challenge is says

My concern is that if you redefine "next turn" to be a constantly rolling entity rather than a fixed point in time you end up with every other instance of "next turn" causing major problems.

There are several abilities which function only once per turn. Why oh why didn't WotC use the same wording if that was their intent?

 

[jelmore]

I was going to write a post arguing how the paladin's divine challenge ability is meant to do damage every round, but after reading the text in question and comparing what others have been saying in thread, I've changed my mind. I think the radiant damage is meant to be once per challenge.

Think of it this way: the marked condition already inflicts a penalty on the target of a -2 to attack rolls that don't including the marking creature. The divine challenge adds a dollop of holy retribution to it for the opponent that initially assumes the paladin isn't worth the attention, or for the desperate foe that is trying to escape with his life.

The radiant damage from the paladin's challenge is a sure thing; I don't see any other classes that get near-guaranteed damage every round as a class feature. The fighter gets the possibility of an immediate interrupt melee attack every round as part of its combat challenge, but OAs can miss. The same goes for the ranger's Hunter's Quarry and the warlock's Warlock's Curse features; they do extra damage only if the PCs hit.

(Also, this interpretation has the side effect of also shutting down all of the "DC then eyebite/become insubstantial/become invisible" workarounds that people are trying to come up.)

EDIT: And then of course I have to find the article on WotC's site that blows my theory out of the water:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dusg/20080227a

Often, though, there are other effects that serve as riders on the marked condition. For instance the paladin's divine challenge -- that class's signature marking ability -- does some amount of radiant damage once a turn [emphasis mine] when the target of divine challenge attacks someone other than the paladin who marked him.

 

[James McMurray]

That article is from before they erattaed Divine Challenge. Doesn't mean it isn't how it's meant to be, just that it's older than the last change they made tot he power.