Paladin's Challenge Question

[neobolts]

Can we agree that by RAW a holy avengers bonus to radiant damage attacks counts when divine challenge causes damage to a target, the power has the radiant keyword.

Yes, RAW that interpretation holds true, but in terms of RAI, both the weapon and radiant keywords should be present. If you include powers without the weapon keyword, you end up with a weird scenario where a Pal/Clc procs weapon damage with his cleric pew pew lasers.

 

[jelmore]

That article is from before they erattaed Divine Challenge. Doesn't mean it isn't how it's meant to be, just that it's older than the last change they made tot he power.

I don't see anything in the errata about Divine Challenge. Where is it listed?

 

[James McMurray]

It's not "errata" errata. But earlier versions of divine challenge that were used at the various game days didn't make the "before the end of your next turn" distinction. They also didn't have the clause forcing the paladin to engage the target to keep the mark going.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem with that interpretation is that it means that there are now many powers with infinite durations. If "your next turn" resets every turn, then anything that ends "at the end of your next turn" or "at the end of the target's next turn" will never end.

I don't doubt that they intended for it to repeat the damage once per turn, but the wording doesn't support it. Unfortunately, if they stick to their promise we won't be seeing errata for another month or more, and according to reports, customer service has given both answers. Maybe a Sage Advice will grace us with knowledge.

Actually no power has infinite duration. A power with an indefinate duration lasts five minutes at most, unless otherwise stated.

 

[James McMurray]

Sorry, I was exaggerating for effect. I think we can still agree that having powers which say "end at the end of your next turn" last five minutes wasn't the intent?

 

[Mouseferatu]

The problem with that interpretation is that it means that there are now many powers with infinite durations. If "your next turn" resets every turn, then anything that ends "at the end of your next turn" or "at the end of the target's next turn" will never end.

Nope, because I'm not saying that "before the end of your turn" is a "rolling deadline" under normal circumstances. I'm saying that it's the case here because the power specifically includes rules for maintaining/resetting itself at the end of every round, as long as you take the proper actions (engage the target and do not mark someone else).

The entire power has to be read as an aggregate to get my interpretation, and I'll be the first to agree that it could've been phrased better. But it's still there to be read.

 

[GorTeX]

upon further consideration (and reading the opinions in this thread), I think the phrase, "the first time it makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target before the start of your next turn.", is supposed to indicate that the damage only happens once per round, not each time the enemy attacks someone else.

 

[Lurker37]

Yes, RAW that interpretation holds true, but in terms of RAI, both the weapon and radiant keywords should be present. If you include powers without the weapon keyword, you end up with a weird scenario where a Pal/Clc procs weapon damage with his cleric pew pew lasers.

Only if you completely ignore the fact that Holy Avengers also count as implements for paladins. So paladin powers with the Implement keyword also benefit, as might cleric powers gained from multiclassing.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

Oddly, it seems that “before the start of your next turn” indicates that the damage is applicable each round of combat at a once-per-round maximum, though, by itself, the phrase seems to indicate the opposite: it happens only one time after the mark is applied (which was my initial interpretation). Compare the two sentences:

“Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as the target.”

Vs.

“Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as the target before the start of your next turn”

Of course, I don’t know why they didn’t just say…

“Also, once per round, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier when it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as the target”

 

[Xorn]

A fighter gets to swat a marked target in the face if they shift or make an attack that doesn't include the fighter as a target.

When a dwarf is cracking a creature over the head with a maul for 2d6+5 damage at first level--how is ChaMod+3 overpowered?

It feels like some people are trying to read between the lines here. The first time it makes an attack before your next turn. Here's a simple checklist.

Creature attacks without you as a target, while challenged:
- Is this the first attack before your next turn starts?
--If yes, Charisma+3 radiant damage, -2 to attack roll.
--If no, -2 to attack roll.

Okay, I guess I can see how people are reading it--the suggested wording (once per round) would make more sense, but for a power that got changed over and over, I guess I just have decided to be forgiving.