Paragons of Fey Valor

[Nemesis Destiny]

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Paragons of Fey Valor)

Nice work, Mr. Pozas! Both the art and the PPs. Always a pleasure to read one of your articles.

The first would be great for a Valorous Bard, Paladin/Cavalier, or even a Fey Hexblade. I mean, it could work with any class that wanted a mount, but those sprang immediately to my mind.

The second one, I have fewer ideas for, though it certainly is thematic.

The third one just screams Chaos Sorcerer to me. It would probably rock on a Feylock or Hexblade, too.

 

[Klaus]

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Paragons of Fey Valor)

Nice work, Mr. Pozas! Both the art and the PPs. Always a pleasure to read one of your articles.

The first would be great for a Valorous Bard, Paladin/Cavalier, or even a Fey Hexblade. I mean, it could work with any class that wanted a mount, but those sprang immediately to my mind.

The second one, I have fewer ideas for, though it certainly is thematic.

The third one just screams Chaos Sorcerer to me. It would probably rock on a Feylock or Hexblade, too.

Thanks!

The White Horn Knight, to me, works for Warlords, Paladins, Cavaliers, Knights, Valorous Bards and Fey Hexblades. Pretty much any Str- or Cha-based class in heavy armor.

The Moon Hunter is aimed more at Prescient Bards, Rangers, Rogues, Slayers and Fey Hexblades. But really, it can work with characters from any class, since its attacks are stat-independent.

The Soaring Rake isn't as attractive for Chaos Sorcerers because it relies mostly on melee attacks (although a Chaos Sorcerer using powers from my Shivs of Sorcery article could make good use of it). But Rogues, Bards, Dex-based Slayers and Fey Warlocks are prime candidates.

 

[Matt James]

It always makes me think you're a bad-arse when I see Written and Illustrated by Claudio Pozas. Great article my friend.

 

[bargle0]

Thanks!

The White Horn Knight, to me, works for Warlords, Paladins, Cavaliers, Knights, Valorous Bards and Fey Hexblades. Pretty much any Str- or Cha-based class in heavy armor.

The Moon Hunter is aimed more at Prescient Bards, Rangers, Rogues, Slayers and Fey Hexblades. But really, it can work with characters from any class, since its attacks are stat-independent.

The Soaring Rake isn't as attractive for Chaos Sorcerers because it relies mostly on melee attacks (although a Chaos Sorcerer using powers from my Shivs of Sorcery article could make good use of it). But Rogues, Bards, Dex-based Slayers and Fey Warlocks are prime candidates.

I have problems with the daily attack powers written as "ability + constant vs. NAD", without any weapon or implement keyword.

At level 20, the minimally competent character is going to have a +4 enhancement bonus to attack along with a +2 feat bonus from expertise. So now we're at ability + 6 vs. NAD, which beats both powers in the article. Without getting too far past level 21, that character is normally going to be rolling ability + 5 enhancement + 3 feat, which is beating the pants off of the powers in the article. The disparity in accuracy just gets worse, meaning those powers just don't scale.

In all seriousness, is the intent that players will mostly be using those powers for their Effect and Miss lines? Blind until EoNT from Reflect the Full Moon is a decent control effect, and better than (save ends) in some situations. However, it's still a waste of a turn for a striker, which is mostly for whom you recommend the path. Furthermore, Blessing of the Unicorns is actually weaker than Stand the Fallen, a level 5 Warlord daily.

 

[Matt James]

Furthermore, Blessing of the Unicorns is actually weaker than Stand the Fallen, a level 5 Warlord daily.

If you're not a Warlord who has the option of taking Stand the Fallen, it's pretty cool.

 

[Klaus]

I have problems with the daily attack powers written as "ability + constant vs. NAD", without any weapon or implement keyword.

At level 20, the minimally competent character is going to have a +4 enhancement bonus to attack along with a +2 feat bonus from expertise. So now we're at ability + 6 vs. NAD, which beats both powers in the article. Without getting too far past level 21, that character is normally going to be rolling ability + 5 enhancement + 3 feat, which is beating the pants off of the powers in the article. The disparity in accuracy just gets worse, meaning those powers just don't scale.

In all seriousness, is the intent that players will mostly be using those powers for their Effect and Miss lines? Blind until EoNT from Reflect the Full Moon is a decent control effect, and better than (save ends) in some situations. However, it's still a waste of a turn for a striker, which is mostly for whom you recommend the path. Furthermore, Blessing of the Unicorns is actually weaker than Stand the Fallen, a level 5 Warlord daily.

You are looking only at the "hit" numbers, instead of the whole thing. Both daily powers are party-friendly burst 2 (which are 25 squares!), meaning you can target multiple opponents with them. More targets mean more d20 rolls, which lead to a greater chance of hitting and a greater chance of critting. Both powers target a NAD, which makes up for the lack of a weapon's proficiency bonus. And you are factoring in feat bonuses that aren't mandatory. And finally, these PPs must work for classes even if they don't have magical implements or weapons. If BoU were an implement attack without a flat bonus, it'd be wasted on a Knight or a Warlord, for instance.

You're comparing Blessing of Unicorns to Stand the Fallen. StF is a 3[W]+Str attack against a single foe that allows healing surge + Cha healing. BoU is a 3d10+ Str *or* Cha + knock prone, burst 2 attack that allows healing surge + Str *or* Cha healing. Not only is BoU targeting a much larger area (25 squares!), but you're also throwing in a knock prone (combat advantage for everyone!) AND you are healing yourself (something StF doesn't do).

And yes, Reflect the Full Moon is indeed good control, which is what it's intended to be. It is another party-friendly burst 2 (25 squares again!) attack versus a NAD, it keys off the characters highest ability score (as I mentioned earlier, it can work for characters of any class) and it has a miss line for half damage and 1-turn blindness.

 

[bargle0]

If you're not a Warlord who has the option of taking Stand the Fallen, it's pretty cool.

Don't get me wrong: I like that particular PP. The destrier is strong, but not broken-strong (at least not yet). However, "You'll probably miss a lot with the daily power, and it's not as good as a daily fifteen levels lower from another class" is not a good way to sell the PP. At that point I'm thinking about how to use that power for something other than what it says on the label, like feeding it to Cannith Goggles.

Personally, I would rather have seen something that uses the destrier, like a trample power that lets you move through opponent spaces and make attacks against them. I think that would be cool, completely thematic, and there is precedent for that kind of power in other places. That would let the rider do awesome things like mess up a bunch of minions or rescue an isolated ally.

At least now there's a quality scaling mount that isn't limited just to cavaliers, and for that I thank Claudio.

 

[Klaus]

Even if I don't agree with some of your assessment, I'd like to thank you for giving it. I think a trample-like power would be great, but would be better provided as something that is class-independent, so any mounted character can take it, whether White Horn Knights, Cavaliers or simple characters riding purchased mounts.

 

[bargle0]

I appreciate that you've made yourself available to fans. I hope that also means that you can accept legitimate constructive criticism and consider it when you are designing things going forward.

For example, a simple fix for BoU and RtFM would be to have them attack at Attribute+9. Attribute+9 vs. NAD has precedent as the appropriate scaling in epic. This is the state of the art going back to at least Dragon 380 (October 2009). The Corrosive Torrent power from that issue is a str or int + 9 vs reflex, close blast 5 power. It covers the same area as your powers, it targets NADs, and it's a level 20 daily power from a paragon path. Furthermore, I will point out that the Soul of Erosion PP is not exactly CharOp bait. This scaling shows up in printed material as well. See, for instance, the Paralyzing Bite power from the DSCS.

You are looking only at the "hit" numbers, instead of the whole thing. Both daily powers are party-friendly burst 2 (which are 25 squares!), meaning you can target multiple opponents with them. More targets mean more d20 rolls, which lead to a greater chance of hitting and a greater chance of critting.

Other burst and blast attacks do not suffer from the same failure to scale. If we are comparing apples-to-apples, this is what we must do.

Both powers target a NAD, which makes up for the lack of a weapon's proficiency bonus.

I had already factored that in to my analysis. Nowhere did I mention proficiency bonuses or attacking AC.

And you are factoring in feat bonuses that aren't mandatory.

I will break this down numerically. I think these are reasonable assumptions:

• The character starts with an 18 in the primary attribute
• The character boosts that stat at every opportunity
• The character takes an Epic Destiny that boosts that attribute
• We are attacking on-level creatures with level + 12 NADs
• Inherent bonus enhancement scaling (+4/5/6 at 17/22/27)

[FONT=Courier New]Level Def Attr 1/2lvl BoU    P  RtFM   P  Imp    P exp.    P
------------------------------------------------------------
   20  32   +6    +10 +21 0.50   +20 0.45 +20 0.45  +22 0.55
   21  33   +8    +10 +23 0.55   +22 0.50 +22 0.50  +25 0.60
   22  34   +8    +11 +24 0.55   +23 0.50 +24 0.55  +27 0.65
   23  35   +8    +11 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]+24 0.50   +23 0.45 +24 0.50  +27 0.60
   24  36   +8    +12 +25 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.50   +24 0.45 +25 0.50  +28 0.60
[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]    25  37   +8    +12 +25 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.45   +24 0.40 +25 0.45  +28 0.55
[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New]    26  38   +8    +13 +26 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.45   +25 0.40 +26 0.45  +29 0.55
 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]  27  39   +8    +13 +26 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.40   +25 0.35 +27 0.45  +30 0.55
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]   28  40   +9    +14 +28 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.45   +27 0.40 +29 0.50  +32 0.60
   [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]29  41   +9    +14 +28 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.40   +27 0.35 +29 0.45  +32 0.55
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New]   30  42   +9    +15 +29 [/FONT][FONT=Courier New]0.40   +28 0.35 +30 0.45  +33 0.55
[/FONT]

I will point out that the value for attribute+implement+expertise is exactly the same as attribute+9 for levels 27-30.

The built in expectation for 4e is to hit 55% of the time. The only mechanism that maintains at least 55% and doesn't decay is to have a weapon/implement power and take an expertise feat. This math was done long ago for the PHB2, which was where expertise feats debuted as official material. To call expertise feats "optional" at this point ignores all of that work. Whether to take them is not the question. The only real question is when.

Early on, 4e combat gained a reputation for a boring grind plagued with missed attacks, especially in epic. This result came about precisely because the designers did not account for this disparity in hit rate. Ignoring that work means taking a step back in that direction.

And finally, these PPs must work for classes even if they don't have magical implements or weapons. If BoU were an implement attack without a flat bonus, it'd be wasted on a Knight or a Warlord, for instance.

Both of those paragon paths have weapon attacks as their encounter powers, which individually are much more important than dailies. Claiming that the PP must work for classes that don't have weapons while simultaneously putting in a weapon attack is inconsistent.

You're comparing Blessing of Unicorns to Stand the Fallen. StF is a 3[W]+Str attack against a single foe that allows healing surge + Cha healing. BoU is a 3d10+ Str *or* Cha + knock prone, burst 2 attack that allows healing surge + Str *or* Cha healing. Not only is BoU targeting a much larger area (25 squares!), but you're also throwing in a knock prone (combat advantage for everyone!) AND you are healing yourself (something StF doesn't do).

Stand the Fallen is much more likely to hit and it heals allies within 10 squares. That's a huge area. If the purpose of the power is to heal, then StF is much better because it has a much broader reach. StF isn't even a terribly good Warlord power, because it forgoes an opportunity to enable your striker to heal instead. That being said, if BoU scales at attribute+9, it is a perfectly useful power.

And yes, Reflect the Full Moon is indeed good control, which is what it's intended to be. It is another party-friendly burst 2 (25 squares again!) attack versus a NAD, it keys off the characters highest ability score (as I mentioned earlier, it can work for characters of any class) and it has a miss line for half damage and 1-turn blindness.

The one-turn blindness is nice. However, if the PP is designed for strikers, then using Reflect the Full Moon is almost always a waste of a turn compared to doing something else. One has to evaluate the opportunity cost: I could use my standard action on this power which does very little damage but has a decent control effect, or I could actually do my job and kill something. If I am a striker, the answer is almost always kill something.

As someone who does a moderate amount of optimizing, I can see these as trap options and plan around it. For instance, if I chose one of these PPs, I will try to use these powers in alternate ways or get something extra out of them. However, a non-optimizer will take these PPs and then wonder why these don't do as well as his buddy's when they start through epic. They make system mastery more important, and that's why I don't like them.

 

[Klaus]

Thanks for the extensive thought you put into your post, bargle0.

If the daily powers had a "Special" line increasing the bonus at, say, 25th level (halfway through its career), would that cover your worries?