D&D 5E Party optimisation vs Character optimisation

[DaveDash]

You take human get the feat, go warlock 2, maybe more but that is all that is needed for agonizing blast and devils sight (better than darkvision). Multiclasing into a few of the cleric domains gives you heavy armor prof don't worry about the strength min or do or be a dwarf. You don't get cleric spell slots back, but you do get warlock spell slots back that you could have used for cleric spells.

It doesn't have to be cleric thats why I said you could mix it up a bit. Sorcerer for casting darkness is great if everyone on the team sees in magic darkness but non of the enemies.

But the idea isn't to focus on warlock it is to poach eldritch blast the most powerful cantrip in the game that scales based on character level not caster level and gives you multiple attacks again based on character level not class or caster level. Also the spell slots that work for any spell prepared or known that come back at a short rest, giving the whole team a reason to break often and recover. Crossbow mastery is just so it doesn't matter if the enemy is in melee or not.

Is it the only way to play, no. Is it the best way to play, no. But this is an optimization conversation and 2 levels of warlock + other full caster for everyone on the team is pretty optimal.

You're always going to be behind in spells, ability score boosts, etc. If you're a non Charisma based class you're going to subject yourself to MAD. I don't see this as a very good thing to do as a Cleric. For example, Light Cleric cantrips are fine due to potent and they don't have to worry about Charisma, meaning they have more for Dex and/or Con, and it would hurt not having those higher level spells earlier.

You're all decent at damage but you're Paladin/Warlock is not as strong as a full Paladin, your Lore Bard is not as strong as a full Lore Bard (Lore Bards can pick up EB for free anyway). About the only class that is arguably stronger is the Sorcerer/Warlock2.

I don't see it as every being as optimal.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Generally speaking, it's still more about balance. The more balanced your group is, the easier it is to overcome challenges. DPR is overrated, IMO. Martial characters are still very strong, even if they suffer short term difficulties, especially as you run more combats per day.

The optimal setup is based on the size of the group.
3: Healer/Mage/Tank; 2 Melee/1 Ranged
4: Healer/Mage/Tank/Specialist (Archer, Rogue, Monk); 2 Melee/1 Ranged/1 Switch
5: 2 Healers/Mage/Tank/Specialist; 3 Melee/2 Ranged
6: 2 Healers/Mage/2 Tanks/Specialist; 3 Melee/2 Ranged/1 Switch
7: 2 Healers/2 Mages/2 Tanks/Specialist; 4 Melee/3 Ranged

You get the idea. Healers are by far the most important, even if they're only partial healers (Paladin & Ranger). Tanks are next, because you need the front line to hold (keeping the mages safe). Mages are more important than Specialists, but both are less important overall (you really only need 1). You can work multiple roles in to improve efficiency even more (your example: 2 1/2 Healers, 2 Mages, 1 Tank, and 1 Specialist with 4 characters)

Good observations. I'll add that healers are important not to much for HP as for status effects; if you never find any way to cast Greater Restoration for example you will eventually regret it. Mages can potentially substitute for tanks in a variety of ways, from Animate Dead to Animate Objects to animal/elemental summoning. (I'm using "mage" as a generic term here, including druids as well as wizards.)

My favorite combo right now is Shadow Monk (tank/scout/anti-Rakshasa platform), Lore Bard X/Warlock 2 (healing and protection, force-based DPR), and Necromancer/eventual Warlock 2 (tanking, artillery; anvil to the monk's hammer).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What can they do to help out each other? One guy gets swallowed and imminently facing death, how are you going to save him? Or someone else gets held and the caster zips out of sight (or goes Ethereal), now what? Mind Flayer is about to eat your friends brains and its not your turn? Or an enemy spellcaster is about to cast a Meteor Swarm on your group, you have no counter-spell? I just rolled a crit and you're facing 127 damage which will one shot you? (Real game example).

The warlock/cleric suggestion wasn't mine, but as a thought experiment here are my thoughts on options for each:

1.) Buddy is swallowed. Cast Command: "Vomit!"
2.) Buddy is Held.Cast Dispel Magic. Both Warlocks and Clerics have access.
3.) Mind Flayer is going to eat your friend's brains. I think you're sunk no matter what your class is. If it were your turn you could break the grapple using Eldritch Blast, but I can't think of any class that can reactively prevent this once things have progressed this far. Hope your buddy has at least 10d10 HP, but at least you can resurrect him if he dies. Also, if you knew there were Mind Flayers in the vicinity you could have pre-cast Death Ward.
4.) Meteor Swarm. Heal each other once the Meteor Swarm goes off? Counter-spell won't work on Meteor Swarm anyway, it's got a range of 1 mile and Counterspell only goes 60 feet.
5.) Crit will one-shot you. Cast Revivify after combat is over.

 

[DaveDash]

The warlock/cleric suggestion wasn't mine, but as a thought experiment here are my thoughts on options for each:

1.) Buddy is swallowed. Cast Command: "Vomit!"
2.) Buddy is Held.Cast Dispel Magic. Both Warlocks and Clerics have access.
3.) Mind Flayer is going to eat your friend's brains. I think you're sunk no matter what your class is. If it were your turn you could break the grapple using Eldritch Blast, but I can't think of any class that can reactively prevent this once things have progressed this far. Hope your buddy has at least 10d10 HP, but at least you can resurrect him if he dies. Also, if you knew there were Mind Flayers in the vicinity you could have pre-cast Death Ward.
4.) Meteor Swarm. Heal each other once the Meteor Swarm goes off? Counter-spell won't work on Meteor Swarm anyway, it's got a range of 1 mile and Counterspell only goes 60 feet.
5.) Crit will one-shot you. Cast Revivify after combat is over.

1. *Legendary Resistance and Laugh*. Or makes its save.
2. Congrats you just wasted a third level spell dispelling a second level spell. Keep it up.
3. Lore Bard, Light Cleric, and Abjurer all have ways of preventing this. In my game you would be down a character if you had the party mentioned instead.
4. I've never had an encounter that started off 1 mile away. Possible but highly unlikely. But yes, if you're out of range, you can't counter-spell. But not being able to EVER counter-spell is worse.
5. Every time I drop a character they have to burn actions and resources trying to get him back up, a simple Lore Bard, Light Cleric, or Abjurer could have easily prevented this. BTW, I kill upon dropping (or at least attempt to). No downed ping pong in my game.

I'm not saying you cannot play with such a party, of course you can! I am arguing that it's not that optimal because it lacks party wide resilience and mitigation.

 

[PnPgamer]

You guys are ending into a loop of "what ifs", and those situations are rare but possible. Its the nsme of the game that some unavoidable crap happens now and then. You then accept it and move on.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

Party optimization is something that a lot of people ignore. I encountered a much bigger concentration on it in the early days of D&D, when character deaths were more common, in general, and there weren't very many ways to optimize individual characters. It's still a very good thing to do, though.

Character and party optimization are both good strategies, but they can weakened considerably by players who don't know how to work well in a party, or who don't know how to take advantage of their own optimizations. I have seen more than my share of players who build very strong characters but don't know how to play them in a way that maximizes their strengths. I have also seen players who know how to build and play strong characters, but are at a loss when it comes to working effectively within groups, even when doing something fairly simple like combat.

 

[Zardnaar]

Disclaimer: If you don't care about min/maxing and to you the game is about the story and the character second, this thread doesn't apply to you. However if you like to play mechanically strong characters (and also enjoy story), then read on.

My DM has been creating a lot of custom monsters recently and I have been testing out various different classes against these monsters. While these are not true adventuring day style encounters, we also put a bit more into these encounters than simply using a straight up arena style fight. We use maps, minions, and have "goals" for each little encounter, sometimes with secondary objectives, which always seems to be saving civilians with my DM.

I've always known that Party Optimisation in 5e is strong, but after using various combinations of classes now together, it's apparent to me it's *much* stronger than individual optimisation.

For example, running the following party - Lore Bard, Veng Paladin, Abjurer Wizard, Light Cleric - consistently overcame most challenges *easier* than many other combinations I have ran, even DPR heavy ones (Such as Crossbow Expert Fighter + SorcLock). And in general, the more spell casters you have in your party generally the easier higher level combats are.

I found parties that focused more on martial abilities could do amazing damage on paper, but were constantly "fouled" up in encounters and unable to make the most of their damage potential. In one battle I created a Frenzy Barbarian that could do amazing damage, but he was swallowed and his damage potential was neutered. Not only that, due to lack of spell casters, I couldn't really do anything about the situation except pile on the damage and hope I rolled well. Not a good strategy.

Some Thoughts:

I really really now appreciate Lore Bards cutting words. This ability is so strong at higher levels when things can do some seriously nasty stuff to you that being not hit is far superior than soaking the damage.
I really appreciate the Paladin aura even more than I did before, and in fact, I rate the Paladin as the strongest overall martial class you can have in your group, more so than a crossbow expert Fighter, due to the "Group Help" factor he brings. Vengeance Paladins being able to Misty Step as well makes them extremely good at getting out of tricky situations (such as being swallowed or grappled).
I tried running a few different Cleric 9/Other Class X builds, and I really appreciate a full level Cleric much more than I did before. Yes they don't do great damage with their weapons, but not having access to Freedom of Movement, Greater/Lesser Restoration, Dispel Evil and Good, Heal, and a whole host of other useful spells can make higher level combats way trickier than they need to be. Clerics are far more useful than just bless bots.
I find the Wizard far superior to the Sorcerer later on (and even the SorcLock). Yes, you can do some amazing damage with the Sorcerer - I was pushing 120-150DPR going 'Nova', but I quite often sat there looking at my spell list when my party was in trouble thinking "Hmm, not much I can do here". However if being a blaster is your play style choice then this class is for you, I won't take that away from you. I did find though the ability to 'twin' buffs is nice, but I found with the action economy it's usually just better to kill stuff quickly.
It's definitely not all about damage, not as much as I used to think it was. Yes, damage is still the main way you win an encounter, but you also need to think about recon, mitigation and survivability, because the odds aren't always in your favour.
Don't trust that a lot of the optimisation builds aimed at character optimisation will give you an easier time. That amazing DPR won't help you when you're feared, swallowed, held, or knocked unconscious and there's nothing your party can do to help.

Now this is aimed at the "combat" pillar of the game obviously, but I do know the Bard/Paladin/Wizard/Cleric combination also has great utility out of combat in the campaign I run, be it social or exploration, and party optimisation is just as important for those pillars as it is for combat.

Remember how I got flamed on the WoTC boards around 6 months ago when I more or less made the same claim? There are a lot of combos to find and even the way hex interacts with skill checks and a shield master fighter is kind of funny.

Our original party.

Lore Bard
Champion Fighter
Diviner Wizard
Tempest Cleric
Hunter Ranger (archer)
War Cleric

More or less agree with everything you have said. We comboed hex shield master, bless and crossbow expert/sharp shooter together in a party. We were also using shield master on huge sized giants as my valor bard and knocking them over.

Current Group level 5

1 Bladelock (1 ftr/4 warelock)
1 Green Knight Paladin
1 Life Cleric
1 Sorcerer (Fire Dragon).

Copious amounts of healing via life cleric, paladin+ healer feat.

 

[Celtavian]

Your experience mirrors my own. We have a vengeance paladin and lore bard, they are a huge help. I'm playing an evocation wizard. I do have to be more careful than a Abjurer. The ward ability starts off slow, but becomes immensely powerful at higher level. It is sickeningly powerful once the Abjurer can cast a 1st or 2nd level abjuration spell at will to constantly recharge it.

The vengeance paladin is amazingly strong. He does so much each battle that few other classes can match.

Lore Bard is a buff machine with that nifty cutting words which saves quite a few hits and quite a bit of damage nearly every battle. Recovering it all on a short rest makes it an almost every round ability.

My evoker wizard is starting to get more powerful. I like that this edition is focusing on different spells than the previous edition. Tonight I put a damage machine in motion using Fire Shield, Animate Objects, along with other attack spells as needed. I animated 10 darts and had them gangbang creatures for 10 attacks for 1d4+4 per attack. Took some NPCs that weren't powerful creatures down rather quickly. A fire shield on a martial, especially a barbarian, does more damage than the creature's attacks. Throw in a fire bolt or another attack spell now and again, you truly increase overall party damage substantially. I'm finding the Evoker does the most damage layering with several spells at once. I try to pick spells with useful features besides pure damage. You can even command your objects to attack one round, then the next round use a bonus action to command one or two of them to use the Help action to give advantage to an attack. Animate Objects has never been this useful as far as I can remember.

Wall of Force is an amazing defensive spell used to set up buffing against enemies that can't bring it down. You can protect your entire party while you heal and buff, even in the middle of a heated battle.

At higher level if you have time to plan, you can create a temporary spell reservoir using Simulacrum with a second wizard capable of concentrating on a spell. Or you can use it to bring some extra martial power, preferably a ranged attack. It's a very flexible spell if you have cash to use it at 7th level or can use it for free with a wish. This second caster can do stuff like allow you double counterspell and buffs or a huge number of animate objects sticking away on some creature. The options are plentiful.

Planar Binding allows you to call in additional party support for either martial damage, give advantage, or other functions depending on the nature of the creature. Planar Binding is the spell that makes gate more useful than it appears. I figure as more books come out with interesting planar creatures, it will make for some interesting customization for party support. Hopefully they come out with a planar creature or elemental that can do some healing.

The wizard's ability to adjust spells and cast rituals out of his book make him unequalled in flexibility. This is a real asset to the party. Even a spell like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Contact Other Plane can provide defense and intelligence in the middle of dungeons with minimal time wasted. You can cast Contact Other Plane with little chance of going insane at later levels allowing you to foresee danger easily.

Wizard, Bard, and Vengeance Paladin in any party is a strong combination with almost any 4th.

 

[Zardnaar]

Your experience mirrors my own. We have a vengeance paladin and lore bard, they are a huge help. I'm playing an evocation wizard. I do have to be more careful than a Abjurer. The ward ability starts off slow, but becomes immensely powerful at higher level. It is sickeningly powerful once the Abjurer can cast a 1st or 2nd level abjuration spell at will to constantly recharge it.

The vengeance paladin is amazingly strong. He does so much each battle that few other classes can match.

Lore Bard is a buff machine with that nifty cutting words which saves quite a few hits and quite a bit of damage nearly every battle. Recovering it all on a short rest makes it an almost every round ability.

My evoker wizard is starting to get more powerful. I like that this edition is focusing on different spells than the previous edition. Tonight I put a damage machine in motion using Fire Shield, Animate Objects, along with other attack spells as needed. I animated 10 darts and had them gangbang creatures for 10 attacks for 1d4+4 per attack. Took some NPCs that weren't powerful creatures down rather quickly. A fire shield on a martial, especially a barbarian, does more damage than the creature's attacks. Throw in a fire bolt or another attack spell now and again, you truly increase overall party damage substantially. I'm finding the Evoker does the most damage layering with several spells at once. I try to pick spells with useful features besides pure damage. You can even command your objects to attack one round, then the next round use a bonus action to command one or two of them to use the Help action to give advantage to an attack. Animate Objects has never been this useful as far as I can remember.

Wall of Force is an amazing defensive spell used to set up buffing against enemies that can't bring it down. You can protect your entire party while you heal and buff, even in the middle of a heated battle.

At higher level if you have time to plan, you can create a temporary spell reservoir using Simulacrum with a second wizard capable of concentrating on a spell. Or you can use it to bring some extra martial power, preferably a ranged attack. It's a very flexible spell if you have cash to use it at 7th level or can use it for free with a wish. This second caster can do stuff like allow you double counterspell and buffs or a huge number of animate objects sticking away on some creature. The options are plentiful.

Planar Binding allows you to call in additional party support for either martial damage, give advantage, or other functions depending on the nature of the creature. Planar Binding is the spell that makes gate more useful than it appears. I figure as more books come out with interesting planar creatures, it will make for some interesting customization for party support. Hopefully they come out with a planar creature or elemental that can do some healing.

The wizard's ability to adjust spells and cast rituals out of his book make him unequalled in flexibility. This is a real asset to the party. Even a spell like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Contact Other Plane can provide defense and intelligence in the middle of dungeons with minimal time wasted. You can cast Contact Other Plane with little chance of going insane at later levels allowing you to foresee danger easily.

Wizard, Bard, and Vengeance Paladin in any party is a strong combination with almost any 4th.

I'm trying to figure out what makes the vengeance paladin so good? I think I prefer the green knight. Hunters Quarry for an extra 1d6 damage maybe?

We have been rolling scores anyway which actually opens up some options if you roll well as some MAD classes kind of suck but become a lot better with better scores than the default array. PCs wanting to use medium armor like valor bards for example.

My perfect party? Probably something like this.

Lore Bard
Greenknight Paladin
Diviner Wizard
Light Cleric (warcaster, healer feats)

This party spreads the damage out over multiple PCs, more or less maximises dice manipulation ability, and has some of the best defences in the game. Also not to bad at range.

There are only a few multiclass builds I like as such.

Sorlock (warlock 2, Sorc XYZ)
Bladelock (ftr 1, Warlock XYZ)
Heal bot (Life cleric 1, Land Druid XYZ)
Heal bot 2 (life cleric 1, Lore Bard 6+ taking good berry, aura of vitality).

2 levels of warlock also starts to look good for lore bards.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm trying to figure out what makes the vengeance paladin so good? I think I prefer the green knight. Hunters Quarry for an extra 1d6 damage maybe?

We have been rolling scores anyway which actually opens up some options if you roll well as some MAD classes kind of suck but become a lot better with better scores than the default array. PCs wanting to use medium armor like valor bards for example.

My perfect party? Probably something like this.

Lore Bard
Greenknight Paladin
Diviner Wizard
Light Cleric (warcaster, healer feats)

This party spreads the damage out over multiple PCs, more or less maximises dice manipulation ability, and has some of the best defences in the game. Also not to bad at range.

There are only a few multiclass builds I like as such.

Sorlock (warlock 2, Sorc XYZ)
Bladelock (ftr 1, Warlock XYZ)
Heal bot (Life cleric 1, Land Druid XYZ)
Heal bot 2 (life cleric 1, Lore Bard 6+ taking good berry, aura of vitality).

2 levels of warlock also starts to look good for lore bards.

The vengeance paladin is what I have experience with. Their ability to gain advantage for tough opponents is pretty nice. The reality is that you can't go wrong with a paladin. The only way to make them weak is to play them badly. Every single paladin archetype is pretty strong in the right situation. Greenknight against casters. First archetype against stuff magic circle protects against. Vengeance paladin for straight up killing a single strong creature. Paladin is one of the strongest overcall classes in the game.

I like the wizard period. It's a very good class. So much to do with it. It's why I've always been attracted to the class. You have your core useful abilities you need to support your party. Then you get to have fun figuring out ways to use odd spells effectively. Diviner and Abjurer are probably the most potent defensive combinations. I like Transmuter and Evoker as well. That little stone can come in handy. The evoker abilities allow some nice bursts of damage and allow you to straight up nuke on top of you party. I like when you can nuke without having to worry about damaging your mates.

I like the barbarian/fighter multiclass for tanking. You have rage for the big fights. Reckless means you almost always hit for high damage. Danger Sense allows you to make Dex saves against dangerous effect allowing you to spend a feat on resilient con giving you pretty well rounded saves. Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight offer some nice combat boosting ability or defensive flexibility.

There's lots of fun, effective combinations in 5E. Figuring out how best to use them in a party environment is huge fun.