D&D 5E passive perception vs active perception

[monkeydm]

Thanks for all your replies guys! Really helpful!

And here’s the thing, something triggering passive perception doesn’t mean the character knows what it is, just that something seems out of place, and needs a closer look (active perception) or proper investigation.

So say the orcs arent really looking. But their PP is higher then the stealth check of the elf. What happens then? I thought the orcs now notice the elf and can attack it. But your statement suggest that they need to make an active check again to determine if its indeed an elf instead of say a wild boar.

In the same post you say that PP is not something like a general radar for anything. You have to declare "im looking for elves". But if the orcs PP score is higher then the elf hide check, isnt it reasonable to assume the orcs have spotted the elf, because that was their spotting objective.

Situation 1: the orcs are not really looking

1. let the player make a stealth check compare vs PP of the orcs. (optionally: give orcs disadvange)
1a. the orcs notice something. Now let the orcs make an active perception roll to see if they see the elf. if they succeed they can attack, otherwise they march on.
1b. the orcs dont notice anything and march on.


Situation 2: the orcs are on the lookout for elves

1. let the player make a stealth check, and again compare vs PP of the orcs
1a. if the orcs PP is equal or greater they see the elf immediately and can attack.
1b. otherwise they march on.

Is this reasonable?

 

[robus]

So say the orcs arent really looking. But their PP is higher then the stealth check of the elf. What happens then? I thought the orcs now notice the elf and can attack it. But your statement suggest that they need to make an active check again to determine if its indeed an elf instead of say a wild boar.

In the same post you say that PP is not something like a general radar for anything. You have to declare "im looking for elves". But if the orcs PP score is higher then the elf hide check, isnt it reasonable to assume the orcs have spotted the elf, because that was their spotting objective.

Situation 1: the orcs are not really looking

1. let the player make a stealth check compare vs PP of the orcs. (optionally: give orcs disadvange)
1a. the orcs notice something. Now let the orcs make an active perception roll to see if they see the elf. if they succeed they can attack, otherwise they march on.
1b. the orcs dont notice anything and march on.


Situation 2: the orcs are on the lookout for elves

1. let the player make a stealth check, and again compare vs PP of the orcs
1a. if the orcs PP is equal or greater they see the elf immediately and can attack.
1b. otherwise they march on.

Is this reasonable?

You raise an excellent point and it speaks to the difference between PCs and NPCs. With PCs, as DM you’re wanting to give their players an interesting world with which to interact so dropping hints baes on passive perception is like giving the players brains bits of mind candy - it gives them stuff to chew on and react to.

For NPCs the DM already knows the entire situation so then it’s a matter of how you want the encounter to go. Is this party of orcs an encounter that will provide some key information to the party? Then sure the orcs will investigate further and mostly like launch an attack.

If this is a random encounter and the PCs barely fail their stealth check then i might have one of the orcs come into the wood looking for something only to be called back to the road right as he’s on top of a sweating PC (for a bit of a close call)

If the PCs fail their stealth badly, then sure the Orcs investigate and attack.

The problem for the DM is you don’t want to play too much by yourself, you roll to resolve uncertainty due to player actions, but they generally take the lead after you set the encounter in motion.

 

[Hriston]

Thanks for all your replies guys! Really helpful!



So say the orcs arent really looking. But their PP is higher then the stealth check of the elf. What happens then?

I'm not sure what work the word really is meant to be doing here. Do you mean that they sort of are looking? For my purposes as a DM, I'd much rather be clear about whether the orcs have a dedicated lookout or not. Usually, in my games, they would.

I thought the orcs now notice the elf and can attack it. But your statement suggest that they need to make an active check again to determine if its indeed an elf instead of say a wild boar.

Okay, so the elf is hiding behind a tree, and let's say the orcs are keeping watch. Their passive Perception is higher than the elf's Stealth check, so they notice it, but that doesn't suddenly make the tree transparent. To determine whether the creature they've detected is an elf, a wild boar, or some other threat, the orcs will have to go around the tree to see what it is.

Situation 1: the orcs are not really looking

If I take this to mean that the orcs simply aren't looking for hidden threats, e.g. they're a hunting party of which every member is focused exclusively on foraging for wild boar, then their passive Perception doesn't come into it. They simply don't notice the hidden elf.

Situation 2: the orcs are on the lookout for elves

1. let the player make a stealth check, and again compare vs PP of the orcs
1a. if the orcs PP is equal or greater they see the elf immediately and can attack.
1b. otherwise they march on.

Is this reasonable?

Mostly, but I wouldn't default to the orcs seeing the elf. Noticing/detecting is not automatically seeing. For the elf to hide, it needs to be out of sight, so that's the default state of affairs. In your example up-thread, the elf was behind a tree. After the Stealth/Perception contest is resolved, the elf remains unseen behind the tree. The orcs have noticed, probably through hearing some quiet noise the elf made, or scenting the elf, that some hidden creature is behind the tree, but it remains for them to move around the tree before they can actually see the elf. If they have some means of attacking the elf without directly targeting it, however, they can certainly do that, but my assumption here is that the tree provides the elf with total cover from any attack by the orcs in their present position.

 

[monkeydm]

Thanks guys. much clearer now

 

[FrogReaver]

If I take this to mean that the orcs simply aren't looking for hidden threats, e.g. they're a hunting party of which every member is focused exclusively on foraging for wild boar, then their passive Perception doesn't come into it. They simply don't notice the hidden elf.

Not to muddy the waters, but PP at that stage could be applied at disadvantage instead of not at all. It really depends on how the DM views the situation. Do they have a chance to spot you. Are they so focused on their task at hand that they have no legitimate chance of seeing you.

Myself I would rule they get PP with disadvantage in this circumstance.

 

[Hriston]

Not to muddy the waters, but PP at that stage could be applied at disadvantage instead of not at all. It really depends on how the DM views the situation. Do they have a chance to spot you. Are they so focused on their task at hand that they have no legitimate chance of seeing you.

Myself I would rule they get PP with disadvantage in this circumstance.

Well, the circumstance given by @monkeydm is that "the orcs are not really looking", which, to me, raises the question of whether they're looking or not. I'm going to need to answer that question before I make a determination on whether there's going to be a Perception check. To me, "not really looking" suggests they aren't, so I wouldn't call for one. On the other hand, it could mean they "sort of" are looking, in which case I would need more details on why it's only "sort of". IMO, at least one orc would need to be keeping watch for hidden threats to make it possible that the elf is noticed, and only then would I apply a situational modifier like disadvantage in the case of some factor like a high level of background noise from a nearby waterfall making it difficult for the orc(s) to detect the hidden elf's presence.

In other words, I don't like to use disadvantage to model not really trying.

 

[monkeydm]

what i meant by not really looking is this: the orcs dont know there are any elves. They are just marching to their base camp for instance.

but in the PHB on pg 177 (block on Hiding), it states that PP can be used even when characters arent really looking. Which kind of contradicts what [MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION] said about PP not being a radar for anything. This rings true to me as wel. Because even if you are not looking for elves, you can spot one (by accident).

 

[iserith]

what i meant by not really looking is this: the orcs dont know there are any elves. They are just marching to their base camp for instance.

but in the PHB on pg 177 (block on Hiding), it states that PP can be used even when characters arent really looking. Which kind of contradicts what @robus said about PP not being a radar for anything. This rings true to me as wel. Because even if you are not looking for elves, you can spot one (by accident).

In the context of that sidebar, it seems to me they are saying that the monsters aren't searching for anything or anyone specific, but are Keeping Watch for dangers in general while going about their business. In which case, passive Perception applies when the outcome of Keeping Watch is uncertain.

 

[Satyrn]

what i meant by not really looking is this: the orcs dont know there are any elves. They are just marching to their base camp for instance.

For me, those orcs would get no chance to notice the elf while he's hiding. Since they simply aren't looking for hidden elves (or anything) any effort that elf takes to hide will be good enough.


However . . .

but in the PHB on pg 177 (block on Hiding), it states that PP can be used even when characters arent really looking. Which kind of contradicts what @robus said about PP not being a radar for anything. This rings true to me as wel. Because even if you are not looking for elves, you can spot one (by accident).

To account for this (because I agree with you), when the elf begins his ambush I'd have the orcs make a perception check to see if their radar saves them from being caught completely unaware.

(But they already chose to be mostly unaware by not looking out for danger, so they need to live with the consequences of their decisions.)

 

[Hriston]

what i meant by not really looking is this: the orcs dont know there are any elves. They are just marching to their base camp for instance.

Okay, got it! So they aren't searching for elves as they march. But they aren't engrossed in any other distracting activity either, if I'm understanding you correctly. In that case, I would assume a normal level of watchfulness and consult their passive Perception in resolving any attempts to remain hidden in their presence that may be in doubt. I imagine orc troops to be reasonably disciplined enough to remain alert for danger as they march, although they may be apt to barrel along at a fast pace, imposing disadvantage on their passive Perception score.

but in the PHB on pg 177 (block on Hiding), it states that PP can be used even when characters arent really looking. Which kind of contradicts what [MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION] said about PP not being a radar for anything. This rings true to me as wel. Because even if you are not looking for elves, you can spot one (by accident).

I think a distinction rightly needs to be made between searching for some specific hidden thing, and generally staying alert for danger. For your passive Perception to matter, you don't need to be doing the former, but you must be doing the latter.