Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E's reception?

[BryonD]

When I said, "I have not seen anything about PF2 that would antithetical to what you think RPGs are about," you responded that you have and noted as such prior.

YOUR WORDS were: "I have not seen anything about PF2 that would antithetical to what you think RPGs are about. " (emphasis mine).
And that phrasing is completely consistent with the prior context. Nowhere have I suggested that my opinions apply to the "the hobby". And you can find me stressing that point frequently in recent posts.
You are misrepresenting what I said rather dramatically and I'd appreciate it if you would acknowledge that.

"To me" does not somehow make a statement into (a) an opinion about preference or (b) above reproach. The statement "to me a hot dog is not a sandwich" is not a statement of preference about hot dogs but an argument about whether a hot dog constitutes, or qualifies as, a sandwich. Stating what you believe constitutes an RPG and that PF2 fails to qualify as one isn't a statement of preference, but an argument of constituency. It's essentially a syllogism masquerading as an opinion of preference. And it seems that if your criteria excludes PF2 as a RPG, given that you claim it is antithetical to an RPG, then that would by consequence exclude a lot of other TTRPGs. This is why your argument, which you claim is a mere statement of "preference," comes across as problematic, toxic gatekeeping regarding the wider hobby. You may not have intended it to be such, but it most definitely reads as such to me.

Again, you are ignoring all context and my repeated praise for both 4E and PF2E for their service to certain playstyles. I don't know if you are simply not paying attention or or you are doing this intentionally, but it fails to meet any basic review of the full conversation.

As to "is it me or is it the kids?" That is very much the point. As I stated above, 5E CLEARLY shows that I am out of step to some degree. And I'm cool with that. But, this thread is about the reception of PF2E. And I went down this same debate path when 4E was new and shiny. I believe that there are a lot of people of love PF2E, but I also believe that there are a lot of people who are turned off by it for a lot of reasons.
Saying that a complaint is simply being out of touch when the system itself doesn't seem to represent "being in touch" is more a matter of putting ones head in the sand.

Is it too late to expand the appeal of PF2E? I don't know. Maybe. But agreeing that expanse would be of value is a mandatory first step. Or, as I also said above, you can follow the pattern of saying that people who don't like PF2E simply are not needed. And then it will be up to you to blame them or reconsider in the not too distant future.

You may rephrase your original statement such that it actually does so, yes. But if you are persistent in the viewpoint that PF2 is not a RPG, then I will remain of the viewpoint that your said viewpoint is toxic gatekeeping that should be challenged.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. Please quote anywhere that a reader can go look at the full context and see that I in any way claimed PF2E was "not an RPG".
Please do that, and seriously, not removing context. Or I'll accept your apology. Or, I'll just assume that you don't like the point I'm making, but you can't engage that so you are intentionally being dishonest.
I'm ok with any of those.

 

[BryonD]

Sure, but your post does not read as a rote difference of preference but as a positive argument about what constitutes an RPG and whether PF2 qualifies as a RPG based on your self-selected criteria.

I decided to go back and look at the post in question.
Here are some things I said:
"And I really want to stress that I have no dispute in the slightest with your table experience. PF2E is perfect for some people and it is well designed for delivering that. Full stop. You may very well have found the game that you personally will be enjoying 25 years from now and that is awesome. " (this one was specifically preamble to your "to me" quote).

"And I am NOT saying this matters a hill of beans to you (or ANYONE). I am not saying or suggesting that I have enlightened anyone in anyway that is automatically relevant to their own experience. I am talking about me and me alone. "

"So, for the question of "PF2E's reception", the question becomes "how many people see it which way" (again not to suggest there are two ways to see it here, but there are two end results: adopter and non-adopter).

And, I think, it is fair to take the perspectives of detractors into consideration and ask what could Paizo have done to increase their breadth of appeal and is there anything they can still do to modify that going forward? "

How can you POSSIBLY claim that I'm not talking about difference in preference?
I did not recall everything I said when I replied a few minutes ago and was simpyl replying based on what I know, think, and believe. But looking back at the words you ignored in your replies reflects very poorly on your misrepresentation.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Well on Roll20, Pathfinder 1E is about five percent of games played while Pathfinder 2E is at one percent. That's not a good look if you ask me...

 

[FrogReaver]

Well on Roll20, Pathfinder 1E is about five percent of games played while Pathfinder 2E is at one percent. That's not a good look if you ask me...

what is 5e and 3e

 

[mserabian]

what is 5e and 3e

5e is 47.5 % and 3e is 1.2 %

 

[dave2008]

Well on Roll20, Pathfinder 1E is about five percent of games played while Pathfinder 2E is at one percent. That's not a good look if you ask me...

It is still early on in the transition though. People have to finish up what they are playing and such.

 

[FrogReaver]

It is still early on in the transition though. People have to finish up what they are playing and such.

Maybe I'm cynical but - companies have to act like their product is doing well or else no one else is going to buy the product. Not acting that way would be shooting themselves in the foot.

So to me the best estimate of pathfinder 2E's success is how many people are playing it especially compared to pathfinder 1e. Now more interesting than a single data point would be the historical trends since pathfinder 2E's release. If we could see that data it would be pretty definitive i would say. Has 2E stabilized at 1.2%? Is it still trending higher and higher. Is the rate of increase going up? Is it's rate of increase going down? (Assuming it has a rate of increase at all - it could already be declining)

 

[dave2008]

Maybe I'm cynical but - companies have to act like their product is doing well or else no one else is going to buy the product. Not acting that way would be shooting themselves in the foot.

So to me the best estimate of pathfinder 2E's success is how many people are playing it especially compared to pathfinder 1e. Now more interesting than a single data point would be the historical trends since pathfinder 2E's release. If we could see that data it would be pretty definitive i would say. Has 2E stabilized at 1.2%? Is it still trending higher and higher. Is the rate of increase going up? Is it's rate of increase going down? (Assuming it has a rate of increase at all - it could already be declining)

Well, if you go to the Roll20 article from earlier in the week you can get the Q2, Q3, & Q4 (2019) results. It is only % of games but:

2019	Q2	Q3	Q4
PF	6.46%	5.72%	4.97%
PF2	0%	0.57%	1.13%

So not a lot to go on yet, but PF2 is going up. However, total games (PF + PF2) is trending down slightly

PS I agree that companies have to act like the game is doing well, that is why I am inclined to take Paizo's (or WotC) own reporting with a grain of salt.

EDIT: The 1.2% you quoted was for D&D 3.5e, not PF. If your interested, 3.5e has been trending down too: 1.57% - 1.25% - 1.21%

EDIT EDIT: And 5e was down in Q3 and gained in Q4, but not as high as Q2: 51.87% - 45.03% - 47.54%

FYI: PF2 was only released in Q3 of 2019, so everything is still very early. It will be interesting to follow.

 

[gss000]

I was interested to see that Call of Cthulu did so well on the list. I wonder if this is an indication of a more competitive #2 game for players or just a site specific thing.

 

[zztong]

PS I agree that companies have to act like the game is doing well, that is why I am inclined to take Paizo's (or WotC) own reporting with a grain of salt.

Agreed. I don't doubt them right now when they say times are good right now. They just released a Core Rulebook. Those tend to get widely purchased and tend to have higher cover prices. Come year three I'll be curious if they can carry the same staff. That might be one of the few external indicators, but even that can be influenced by things like perhaps launching some other game... Steampunk Golarion Horror, anyone? Maybe call it "Spiritfinder" and include a Ghostbusters vibe.