Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Duelist Inquiry

[kyonu]

First post, so forgive me if this is the wrong section. Sorry/thanks in advance.

I'm making a level 15 character for a Pathfinder campaign that I'm joining (It's already in progress, but he's working my guy in so we can have more peeps.)

I have chosen to do a Fighter/Duelist combo. Elf Fighter for the many feats, being an offensive Duelist, and obviously Duelist for his melee maneuverability. I'm curious as to how people make their duelist builds... I am obviously (again) doing an offensive build, and I was wondering what are the best feats to get for this?

Being Fighter up to level 6, I was going to get the Fighter feats, such as Weapon Focus, Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, greater specialization... And then Improved Critical at level 8, IMproved Initiative, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (Rapier)...

Is that a good way to go about things? I will have a (hopefully) high enough dex and Int to get between 16-18 in each of those, and being an Elf, a +2 in Dex and Int. I need a high AC obviously. I would like to move around in combat frequently, so my ATT of OPP needs to be higher on the AC side. I'm using a Rapier to take advantage of the Keen feat, since Criticals are awesome at level 16.

I want to use the highest damage possible aswell.. Thanks to the Duelists extra level damage, (Being applies to criticals aswell, I believe) hopefully it will be a decent damage dealer.

Any hints or tips? Anything I should replace for something else?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ruemere]

(very imho, since I don't like duellist)

Duellist is a one trick pony - more skill points/languages. All other class benefits are available to standard Fighter through bonus feats. Also, at higher level, Fighter gains combat benefits beyond that of Duelist (resulting in better eveything).
For example, Duellist cannot use some of his abilities while wearing heavier armor or using a shield. Consequently, proper magic items can put Fighter well ahead of Duellist.

Either try Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer (to gain multiple benefits) or Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight.
With the former, you will benefit from multiple skill benefits (Hide, Perception, neat shadow tricks), the the latter you will get spells to complement your chosen fighting style.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[kyonu]

I was thinking about Eldritch knight, because I love battle-casters; but I also love not being hit. I realize higher level fighters can be nice with the armor etc, but Duelists have a much better chance to hit, and I'm all for consistancy over power. It is a problem I can't use a shield, but that doesn't mean I can't use Shield-AC bonus items. (Which wouldn't stack anyways, so it's a benefit.)

More or less, I know this is the path I want to take, I just want to make sure the Feat placement is correct. Our DM isn't very Skill oriented, so I don't need to worry about that too much--I just want a character that I won't die with. (A few hits isn't so bad.)

 

[Synchronicity]

Duelist, eh? Well, I'd suggest a progression a bit like this.

Fighter 6/Duelist 9

1 - Dodge
Ftr 1 - Weapon Finesse
Ftr 2 - Mobility
3 - Weapon Focus
Ftr 4 - Weapon Spec
5 - Improved Initiative*
Ftr 6 - Spring Attack*
7 - Step Up*
9 - Improved Critical
11 - Critical Focus
13 - Bleeding Critical
15 - Power Attack*
Free from Duelist: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows

The feats with stars next to them aren't core to the build; they're just useful. The rest of the feats are designed for exactly one purpose: a lean, mean, critting machine. This build doesn't have enough levels of fighter to qualify for greater weapon focus or greater specialisation, so they aren't in there.

With Spring Attack, you can dart in and out against nasty opponents. (though full attack if you think you can take it, because you looooove crits.)

When you crit with this guy, they not only take double damage (and your base damage is weapon die + 11 just from duelist, and weapon spec, before strength and magic), but they also take 2d6 bleed due to Bleeding Critical. And Bleeding Critical contains that beautiful line: 'The effects of this feat stack.' You can have them coating the floor in arterial spray in a few rounds if you get lucky. Furthermore, once you hit duelist 10, you get another 'on crit' ability. You can't stack *feats* with the 'Critical' tag, but you *can* stack a Critical feat and a class ability. Oh, and if you hit 17th level, take Stunning Critical. It is awesome.

As for defense, just make sure you have fairly stratospheric dex and int. You can dump Str and Cha without difficulty if they're not needed for the RP side of the character. You can sort of dump Wis, but I'm always wary of tanking a save stat. You want Dex, followed by Int, followed by Con, followed by everything else. You also want at least 2 ranks of Acrobatics, so you get +6 AC when fighting defensively for a -4 to hit. Don't bother taking Combat Expertise; with duelist bonuses, fighting defensively is better. (and yes, you can stack them, but that's a lot of negatives to hit.)

Your big weakness on the defense is that you will have a good Reflex save but no evasion. Consider investing in a Ring of Evasion if possible.

Final note: If your DM lets in non-Pathfinder stuff, take Melee Weapon Mastery from PHB II instead of Power Attack. It gives +2 attack and damage with one type of weapon, either bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Pre-reqs are Weapon Spec and +8 BAB.
Just one idea. Use as much or as little of it as you like.

 

[kyonu]

Wow, that's some very good advice. Thanks for reminding me about the greater weap focus and spec; I knew you had to be fighter, but I forgot about the level of fighter.

Anyways, I'm taking the Melee Weapon Focus, Critical Focus and Bleeding Critical, now that I read the feat and it does infact state that it stacks. Good eye there. Gives me a nice 30% chance at doom. I think I'll nab up that helm, too.

Well I rolled for my stats last night, and here's whatI got:

STR 15, mod 2
DEX 16 +2 Elf, mod 4
CON 15 -2 Elf, mod 1
INT 18 +2 Elf, +4 Helm, +3 Lvls, mod 8
WIS 14, mod 2
CHA 14, mod 2

Not bad if you ask me, I'm just not too happy about the Con score. I ended up getting an Elven Chain Mail +5, which has a Dex mod of +4, and a total Armor AC of 11. (CP -2, weight still 20lbs) Then an Amulet of AC +2, and Headband of Vast INT (+4 Int). My weapon is a Rapier +1, Speed (Total +4, -3 for SPeed). Decent setup?

My attacks go as such:Rapier, 23/23/18/13, 15-20 x2 Crit, 1d6+17, then an additional 2d6 Bleed on a critical hit. Total AC: 36 (11 Armor, 8 INT, 4 Dex, 2 Nat, 1 Dodge), +12 Initiative, +8AC vs Attacks of OPP. HP = 106 (Not so good rolls, really.)

Anything else you would do differently?

Thanks a lot for the info, it really helped out.

 

[Synchronicity]

Wow, that's some very good advice. Thanks for reminding me about the greater weap focus and spec; I knew you had to be fighter, but I forgot about the level of fighter.

Anyways, I'm taking the Melee Weapon Focus, Critical Focus and Bleeding Critical, now that I read the feat and it does infact state that it stacks. Good eye there. Gives me a nice 30% chance at doom. I think I'll nab up that helm, too.

Well I rolled for my stats last night, and here's whatI got:

STR 15, mod 2
DEX 16 +2 Elf, mod 4
CON 15 -2 Elf, mod 1
INT 18 +2 Elf, +4 Helm, +3 Lvls, mod 8
WIS 14, mod 2
CHA 14, mod 2

Not bad if you ask me, I'm just not too happy about the Con score. I ended up getting an Elven Chain Mail +5, which has a Dex mod of +4, and a total Armor AC of 11. (CP -2, weight still 20lbs) Then an Amulet of AC +2, and Headband of Vast INT (+4 Int). My weapon is a Rapier +1, Speed (Total +4, -3 for SPeed). Decent setup?

My attacks go as such:Rapier, 23/23/18/13, 15-20 x2 Crit, 1d6+17, then an additional 2d6 Bleed on a critical hit. Total AC: 36 (11 Armor, 8 INT, 4 Dex, 2 Nat, 1 Dodge), +12 Initiative, +8AC vs Attacks of OPP. HP = 106 (Not so good rolls, really.)

Anything else you would do differently?

Thanks a lot for the info, it really helped out.

Firstly, you're 100% better off taking a ring of protection +2 instead of the amulet of natural armour. The cost is the same, but the AC also applied against touch attacks, unlike the amulet.

Your build is generally solid, though quite defensive. If I was constructing it, I'd be tempted towards a more Dex-heavy build since it ups your to-hit, but you're pretty much guaranteed to lose some AC that way, due to the Dex caps of armour. For example, switching the helm for a Dex belt would be Dex 22, Int 23. You'd gain 2 to hit (plus Reflex saves and initiative, of course), but you'd have to trade out your mithral chainmail for a mithral chain shirt, lowering your AC by 2 points. However, you'd save some 3,000 GP on the armour (since mithral is +1,000 on light armour but +4,000 on medium), which you could then use to buy an amulet of natural armour +1. So you could basically lose 1 AC for 2 to hit if you were so inclined.

Speed is incidentally an excellent enchantment if you don't have a reliable caster of haste backing you up.

 

[kyonu]

Firstly, you're 100% better off taking a ring of protection +2 instead of the amulet of natural armour. The cost is the same, but the AC also applied against touch attacks, unlike the amulet.

Your build is generally solid, though quite defensive. If I was constructing it, I'd be tempted towards a more Dex-heavy build since it ups your to-hit, but you're pretty much guaranteed to lose some AC that way, due to the Dex caps of armour. For example, switching the helm for a Dex belt would be Dex 22, Int 23. You'd gain 2 to hit (plus Reflex saves and initiative, of course), but you'd have to trade out your mithral chainmail for a mithral chain shirt, lowering your AC by 2 points. However, you'd save some 3,000 GP on the armour (since mithral is +1,000 on light armour but +4,000 on medium), which you could then use to buy an amulet of natural armour +1. So you could basically lose 1 AC for 2 to hit if you were so inclined.

Speed is incidentally an excellent enchantment if you don't have a reliable caster of haste backing you up.

Which the case is, our caster's don't have Haste. Believe it or not, our cleric doesn't have any healing! Yeah I know what you're thinking; we were all goin' nuts when we heard it.

Anyways, good advice there, and I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 1 AC, seeing as how I'm at nearly untouchable anyways. (Highest hitter in our party would have to roll a 14 (Currently 15) to hit me, and that's after modifiers. The main reason I went defense over offense, was because I can go into defensive combat, and get Combat expertise, and end up losing -5 attack, but gaining +8 AC while in combat. That's pretty hausin', since I'll be at a 44AC at that point, meaning they'd have to nat 20 to hit.

But I do like the feedback, and infact since I havn't been through a lot with him yet, I'll swap out the Ammy for the Ring. (Can you use more than two rings? I gave him a Ring of Sustenance, and a Ring of Feathfall, since our DM likes to make us drop a lot.........) But I really do like the option to swing at a 25/25 for my first two attacks... (though one would end up being a Parry/Riposte pretty much any round the enemy attacks me/adjacent allies...) So I will take that into consideration. I am gonna' duel him against my brother (Who is a half-celestial, dual-wielding Elven Courtblade bastard), who has a 12-20 x2 Critical... Ouch. (Improved Critical , Cleft'd blades) and at a 21 to hit.

Thanks a lot for the strategy!

 

[Synchronicity]

Which the case is, our caster's don't have Haste. Believe it or not, our cleric doesn't have any healing! Yeah I know what you're thinking; we were all goin' nuts when we heard it.

Anyways, good advice there, and I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 1 AC, seeing as how I'm at nearly untouchable anyways. (Highest hitter in our party would have to roll a 14 (Currently 15) to hit me, and that's after modifiers. The main reason I went defense over offense, was because I can go into defensive combat, and get Combat expertise, and end up losing -5 attack, but gaining +8 AC while in combat. That's pretty hausin', since I'll be at a 44AC at that point, meaning they'd have to nat 20 to hit.

But I do like the feedback, and infact since I havn't been through a lot with him yet, I'll swap out the Ammy for the Ring. (Can you use more than two rings? I gave him a Ring of Sustenance, and a Ring of Feathfall, since our DM likes to make us drop a lot.........) But I really do like the option to swing at a 25/25 for my first two attacks... (though one would end up being a Parry/Riposte pretty much any round the enemy attacks me/adjacent allies...) So I will take that into consideration. I am gonna' duel him against my brother (Who is a half-celestial, dual-wielding Elven Courtblade bastard), who has a 12-20 x2 Critical... Ouch. (Improved Critical , Cleft'd blades) and at a 21 to hit.

Thanks a lot for the strategy!

You're limited to 2 magic rings, so no, you couldn't use the protection ring with both of the rings you currently have. Depends how important the sustenance and feather fall are to you, really. And whatever happens, have fun!

 

[kyonu]

You're limited to 2 magic rings, so no, you couldn't use the protection ring with both of the rings you currently have. Depends how important the sustenance and feather fall are to you, really. And whatever happens, have fun!

Thanks.

And I can probably avoid the ring of Feather Fall until I need it, so I can swap them both out here and there.

Next up in a thread: A well made item-creation based character, who has "throw anything" and a torch. Stay tuned in next time!