Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[MrGrenadine]

In before the inevitable objections, counter-arguments, emotional kneejerk reactions and "yeah, buts" to say:

Congratulations to the whole Paizo team!

I played in an 18 month long PF campaign (Runelords) right after it was released, and I'm now having a blast in a weekly PF homebrew. The game played beautifully right out of the starting gate, and has just gotten better with age. I look forward to enjoying it for years to come.

 

[Starman]

Congrats, Paizo Team! I really enjoy the PF stuff and am thrilled that they are doing so well.

 

[Dannager]

Not sure I totally follow. The "general wisdom" comes from an article Sean Reynolds posted a long time ago, the "$10 about equals DDi profitability" is from the DDi pricing, the "Pathfinder outselling D&D" comes from the OP's link. I'm assuming then that you're asking if I have an educated guess about DDi subscriptions and I do not. The numbers I've seen thrown around as conservative, though, are still pretty high (40k comes to mind). From other casual remarks by industry folks (including the enthusiasm of Paizo at hitting 50k sales of core Pathfinder book) I've come to presume that selling 40k books/month would be fantastically successful for the industry. There is a good chance DDi equates to about that or beyond. Wish I had more, sorry.

This is a good summary, I think.

Of note, however, is that the D&D Insider group on Wizards' online community has over 56,000 members. In order to join that group you have to be a DDI subscriber. You also have to create an online community account (a separate action from creating your DDI account), so it stands to reason that the number of DDI group members is less than (and probably much less than) the number of DDI subscribers.

So if a single month's subscription to DDI is equivalent to the profit WotC makes off a single book, then yeah, they're doing pretty ridiculously good.

All the same, though, (and as I said in the thread linked to in the OP) Paizo deserves some serious congratulations for apparently taking the lead in print sales. It's clear, now, that this is a two-giant industry. This is, I think, good for all of us.

 

[Kzach]

The numbers I've seen thrown around as conservative, though, are still pretty high (40k comes to mind).

The last official figure was apparently (I don't have a link for it) 56,000 subscriptions to DDI.

If you assume the worst, that's roughly $333,200 a month in revenue. Have no idea what the profit margin would be on DDI though.

 

[Stormonu]

Well, Pathfinder is definitely killing 4E on electronic book sales, for sure.

Also, remember that the 4E PHB I (and likely the MM1 and DMG1) is no longer in production. As WotC said a few months back, they aren't producing any more of that book; there's enough copies out there to sustain the market for the immediate future and/or moving over to the Essentials versions.

(Somehow though, I am reminded of the warehouse(s) full of 1E product that were never sold at the end of 2E's life cycle.)

Finally, Lisa's investigations don't take into account DDI. Which from the sounds of the 4E boards, is the primary method 4E'ers are supporting D&D 4E.

Lest I sound like I'm a 4E defender, my gut agrees with Lisa. However, we don't have hard evidence beyond hearsay and an hour-by-hour graph of purchases on Amazon (without a show of the actual numbers behind the rankings at that).

 

[S'mon]

Paizo is outselling 4e on hardcopy (+ebooks), WoTC is still probably taking in more money thanks to DDi. Interesting.

I guess the thing is that Paizo represents a huge chunk of what had been WoTC talent; Pathfinder is a huge chunk of almost entirely WotC-created intellectual creation. It's not like a third party game & publisher came out of nowhere to challenge D&D; more that D&D split like an amoeba.

 

[AeroDm]

This is a good summary, I think.

Of note, however, is that the D&D Insider group on Wizards' online community has over 56,000 members. In order to join that group you have to be a DDI subscriber. You also have to create an online community account (a separate action from creating your DDI account), so it stands to reason that the number of DDI group members is less than (and probably much less than) the number of DDI subscribers.

So if a single month's subscription to DDI is equivalent to the profit WotC makes off a single book, then yeah, they're doing pretty ridiculously good.

All the same, though, (and as I said in the thread linked to in the OP) Paizo deserves some serious congratulations for apparently taking the lead in print sales. It's clear, now, that this is a two-giant industry. This is, I think, good for all of us.

Absolutely. Of any company in the industry, I think Paizo has earned it. I remember thinking "WTF?" when Dungeon and Dragon got sold to some random company with a weird name and then slowly becoming enamored with their work. They ground out their reputation, it is well deserved, and they are one of the few corporate entities in the world that I can honestly say "I wish them the best."

 

[AeroDm]

The last official figure was apparently (I don't have a link for it) 56,000 subscriptions to DDI.

If you assume the worst, that's roughly $333,200 a month in revenue. Have no idea what the profit margin would be on DDI though.

Another vague figure comes to mind that WotC spend some $30mm on their entire digital initiative (probably spanning more than just D&D). That'll take a while to earn back, but I actually think DDi will do just that. DDi is a mechanism to not share the revenues of D&D with distributors, retailers, or waste it on shipping costs. It is a solid business move. I think the fact that WotC upped their support and investment in FLGS at the same time is a sign that they are committed to growing the 4e game and also the industry. This is a volatile, but awesome, time to be a gamer.

 

[Dice4Hire]

To me it is all about the players and games.

I have oodles of games I would love to play but since, I doubt I can find players or a game to play in, I do not buy the game.

Pathfinder is one of those for me.

 

[AeroDm]

To me it is all about the players and games.

I have oodles of games I would love to play but since, I doubt I can find players or a game to play in, I do not buy the game.

Pathfinder is one of those for me.

To what extent do you think that is a chicken-or-the-egg scenario? Are the players you have access to just diehard committed to other games or is no one willing to break the ice? (I have no dog in this fight, so honest question).