Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Hussar]

Do not overlook the older gamers whose schedules have all but excluded the possibility of regular game sessions. I'm 45 and have not DMed a face-to-face game since 1994. Offline I am married, have 7 kids, a job, and a hobby farm to care for. However, I have been running online games (play-by-post and chat-based) since 1995. My current chat-based game started nearly four years ago.

With my iPad I can access my IRC-based chat, look over game notes (Pages), and read rulebooks in PDF form. Do not overlook the allure of ease-of-use.

True this.

I look at my current group - six of us, three of us pushing 40, one just a tad over thirty and two late twenties. At least three of us have been gaming online with VTT's for about eight years or so.

I think that the idea that VTT play is for kids is a meme that really needs to get spiked.

 

[Umbran]

It is good that Paizo is doing well.

It is pretty cruddy how people continue to treat each other in this thread.

Good sportsmanship should be the idea of the day. Please remember that. Thanks.

 

[Dannager]

I have no evidence, but the rumor was he was fired. Just consider it the more likley scenario.

I believe it's just as likely that Carter was laid off, and that Bill (who is married to Carter) voluntarily left the job for reasons related to their marriage (whether for the sake of a geographical move or otherwise), and so that someone else could be spared the layoff.

 

[Firebeetle]

Obviously I touched on some sore spots there. People are very loudly telling me they are not afraid and putting on a bold face. I've seen it before.

I'm an educator, and as you may have heard we've been going through a lot of change in the last 10 years. In three years we have to have every child proficient in reading and math. This has led to many attempts to change and reform. Schools that embrace changes successfully often do quite well. However, many of my fellow teachers balk at the idea of doing something differently than before, even if it is for the best for everyone, especially the students. I hear many familiar statements, let's see if you can recognize them:

• There was nothing wrong with what we were doing
• This doesn't work (when it does, they just don't understand)
• The old way worked (when it didn't)
• We just need to do what we were doing better
• We've never done it that way before
• The issues the new way addresses don't really matter
• We don't need to worry about meeting the needs other stakeholders, only ourselves (in so many words)

(For those of you that added "in the bedroom" after each item list, shame on you)

Just as I've seen many good programs fail because teachers refused to "buy-in", I fear we will see the same for 4e. For the first time in it's nearly 40 year history, D&D is back on the cutting edge of RPG design just to be held back by traditionalists for refuse to accept change. For those educators in the know, it's like choosing basal readers over balanced literacy because that's what people know. Even if 4e fails, we will see more games like it in the future.

To be fair:

I'm sure many people tried it and didn't like it. On multiple occasions early on I encountered players who were verbally abusive to the game before they had ever come to the table. Extremely unpleasant episodes which clearly showed some had already made their choice. If this was not you and your choice was perfectly rational without pre-judgement I understand and apologize if I have offended you.

I have looked at Pathfinder extensively while not purchasing it and agree with many of the "uber-tweaks" to 3.5 they have made. If I was still playing 3.5 I would be enthusiastic about Pathfinder but I would still be fixing some things (there is no difference between the first level bards, for example, they both still suck.) However, 4e is the way RPGs will survive into the future. Our type of gaming is waning in the face of computer gaming and simple reality. Nearly all my old gaming comrades (I live far away now) substitute WoW or the like for gaming these days. 4e is appealing, understandable, and versatile. There's nothing in earlier editions I can't do in 4e, we roleplay now more than ever. Pathfinder represents the pinnacle of evolution for the old game system, but it doesn't overcome the flaws and problems like 4e does.

Pathfinder adventures are absolutely gorgeous and I am told they are well crafted. If they made 4e versions I would probably buy them. I will look into converted modules, I did not know they exist.

I do feel 4e has a major, major flaw and that is the GSL. Under the OGL we saw a bloom of 3rd party support, although a time limit would have been smart. Anytime I conceive of a 3rd party project under 4e I run into the restrictions of the GSL. If they would open their rule system up more I think they would have better success. As it currently stands, what have they to lose?

 

[Reynard]

Anyone want to continue to claim that 4e fans aren't as evangelical as Pathfinder fans?

I think Pathfinder fans -- and I am one of them -- are and should be more evangelical. If we want to see our preferred game grow and receive both the respect* and market share we believe it deserves, it is incumbent upon us to try and expand its player base.

Of course, that doesn't mean we have to be jerks about it, or denigrate others' preferences. But it's okay to say "I think Pathfinder is better, and here's why." or any other game.

* having seen Pathfinder referred to as the bloated reanimated corpse of a dead game, I do think there's a respect problem.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[bouncyhead]

I think that the idea that VTT play is for kids is a meme that really needs to get spiked.

I wasn't aware that there was such a meme. If there is it should be taken into a room and shot.

I can say with some certainty that if it were not for VTT play, real-life resonsibilities and geography would mean that our group would only play twice a year.

As it is we can import our PCs direct into d20pro from Herolab, set up a conference call on Skype and voila. It's not face-to-face but it's not far off either.

 

[DaveMage]

However, 4e is the way RPGs will survive into the future.

What does this even mean???

4e may not even survive into the future.

But hey, you're entitled to your own reality.

 

[Dannager]

What does this even mean???

4e may not even survive into the future.

But hey, you're entitled to your own reality.

The model introduced first with 4e (highly expandable rules system, heavy digital support, treating a system like software that can be updated, etc.) will be the model we see going forward. This is how things will be done from now on. There is no going back. Those who do not adopt this model will not be considered forerunners in the RPG pack.

 

[BryonD]

The model introduced first with 4e (highly expandable rules system, heavy digital support, treating a system like software that can be updated, etc.) will be the model we see going forward. This is how things will be done from now on. There is no going back. Those who do not adopt this model will not be considered forerunners in the RPG pack.

Started with 4E?

I'll give you "digital support". But that is also a total side point that could be applied to ANY game system regardless of the merits of that particular system.

But "highly expandable" and "treating like upgradable software"????
We had this thing called the OGL. Maybe you have heard of it.
It was lifted directly from software models intended to make the systems as expandable and upgradeable as possible. And the alternates and add-ons that developed for 3E as a result were all over the place.

I agree with you that these are important. But giving 4E credit for them is quite odd, being as 4E is vastly more restrictive than its predecessor.