Pendragon d20?

[mmadsen]

You know, I hadn't considered it before, but Pendragon should work well for a Conan flavored campaign--especially if background skill charts were made for each of the different nations.

Probably, but working up background skill charts for each nation could be a bit of work. And a lot of Pendragon's interesting notions don't carry over too well to Conan -- families, Winter Phase, courtly amor, etc.

 

[mmadsen]

Something like Ars Magica's system seems appropriate, but that's a game in which the wizards dominate.

I don't think Ars Magica's flexibility is necessary for Arthurian sorcerers. (I'm not against it either.) Unfortunately, I think what you need is plenty of reasons not to use magic -- it's draining, it only works at special times, it requires dangerous ingredients, etc. -- and that makes it hard to play a magic-using character.

Of those, the most interesint might be to require dangerous or difficult-to-find ingredients. The party could continually quest for their wizard friend's needs, and he has to tag along to identify the ingredients, to get them past magical foes, etc. A lot of his magical power could be knowledge -- knowing the mundane weaknesses of magical creatures, knowing how to bargain with fey, etc.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't think Ars Magica's flexibility is necessary for Arthurian sorcerers. (I'm not against it either.) Unfortunately, I think what you need is plenty of reasons not to use magic -- it's draining, it only works at special times, it requires dangerous ingredients, etc. -- and that makes it hard to play a magic-using character.

Of those, the most interesint might be to require dangerous or difficult-to-find ingredients. The party could continually quest for their wizard friend's needs, and he has to tag along to identify the ingredients, to get them past magical foes, etc. A lot of his magical power could be knowledge -- knowing the mundane weaknesses of magical creatures, knowing how to bargain with fey, etc.

The problem, as I said above, is that if you handicap the spellcasters too much, make magic too hard to cast, then it's wasted effort - nobody will play a spellcaster. What you outline above does, indeed, make for good adventure seeds - but the spellcaster in stories that use such motivation would be, in D&D terms, NPCs. What you describe the wizard doing in the party, coupled with the paucity of magic he or she could use in a given day (by your description), would make that character a one-trick pony, almost literally.

Now, you could bring up again the use of a CoCd20-type magic system. That would be a good alternative. But you would still have to figure out a way to make spellcasters useful when they can't use magic.

In a way, I think we may be putting too much effort into devising a magic system for Pendragon d20. The original game, up until 4th edition (recent), left spells and magic up the DM to adjudicate - that's the nature of that game; it wasn't about spellcasters. The Pendragon "Celtic magic" system found in 4th edition is rather limited, and finds a decent counterpart (in my opinion) in the CoCd20 system. But, again, Pendragon isn't really about spellcasters.

 

[mmadsen]

The problem, as I said above, is that if you handicap the spellcasters too much, make magic too hard to cast, then it's wasted effort - nobody will play a spellcaster.

You can handicap spellcasters plenty and still make it worth their while to remain spellcasters. The goal of the handicapping isn't to make them less powerful; it's to make them cast spells only when they really need them. To that end, you can make the cost of a spell great, but you can let them cast more powerful spells. Rather than nibbling away with Magic Missiles, wizards might wipe out whole armies with Meteor Storms -- but they won't get dozens of "free" spells per level.

What you describe the wizard doing in the party, coupled with the paucity of magic he or she could use in a given day (by your description), would make that character a one-trick pony, almost literally.

A few things would help there. First, the wizard should have other abilities beyond classic spells. I like the Expert class for "wizards" for that reason. Second, the wizard shouldn't have a hard limit, where he can cast exactly N spells per day. He should have difficult choices to make about whether he tries for one more spell. Simply being out of ammo is no fun, but rolling the roulette wheel can be great (if tense) fun.

 

[hong]

Rather than nibbling away with Magic Missiles, wizards might wipe out whole armies with Meteor Storms -- but they won't get dozens of "free" spells per level.

How fricking boring.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

You can handicap spellcasters plenty and still make it worth their while to remain spellcasters. The goal of the handicapping isn't to make them less powerful; it's to make them cast spells only when they really need them. To that end, you can make the cost of a spell great, but you can let them cast more powerful spells. Rather than nibbling away with Magic Missiles, wizards might wipe out whole armies with Meteor Storms -- but they won't get dozens of "free" spells per level.

A few things would help there. First, the wizard should have other abilities beyond classic spells. I like the Expert class for "wizards" for that reason. Second, the wizard shouldn't have a hard limit, where he can cast exactly N spells per day. He should have difficult choices to make about whether he tries for one more spell. Simply being out of ammo is no fun, but rolling the roulette wheel can be great (if tense) fun.

OK. So show us how to do it.

 

[mmadsen]

OK. So show us how to do it.

CoC d20 is already most of the way there; let's start with it as our basis. "Wizards" (and "Druids") are Experts with access to spells.

To make their many skills more useful and fun, we bump up their skills' power. I'm not sure I'd want to separate Alchemy from other magic, but we can obviously up Alchemy's power to let wizards crank out magic potions. Animal Empathy might allow wizards to speak to animals. Appraise might identify magic items, although I think Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft would fit better. More monsters might by Bluff-able than in typical D&D, especially if the wizard knows their personal weaknesses. I'd definitely make Decipher Script a wizard skill -- and I'd make everyone else illiterate. As with Bluff, I'd try to make Diplomacy more useful, especially if the wizard knows what monsters of type X want, fear, etc. I don't see too many traps in such a campaign, but I wouldn't mind seeing such wizards supplant Rogues in Searching for and Disabling Devices. Such wizards could also Disguise themselves well. Escape Artist obviously fits the magician archetype. Forgery should fit the one literate class as well. And on and on. We could even let a simple Scry check see into the spirit realm (i.e. see insivible, see through many illusions).

As far as spellcasting, we have quite a few options. Even without going all the way to CoC magic, we could manipulate the existing system to feel more "magical". A core D&D Wizard can cast three cantrips and a couple 1st-level spells per day (and thus per evening's play in many cases). We can increase those numbers but decrease their "refresh rate". What if we make those per-day limits per month? We can boost the numbers a bit, but Wizards would remain almost as powerful (or even more powerful) in a typical adventure, but they wouldn't "waste" spells on a daily basis. Or we can increase the spells a Wizard has access to. Maybe 1st-level Wizards can cast 2nd- or 3rd-level spells? A power-point system might work better than spell slots if Wizards aren't going to get multiple spells of every level.

If we do go with a CoC magic system, that gives spellcasters access to "higher level" spells, and it gives them a "fuzzy" limit on their casting (Ability Damage and Sanity loss). If we let them recover Sanity via sleep/meditation, we've got something Pendragon-esque. If we let them sleep it off later, we have a playable PC spellcaster.

 

[mmadsen]

Any thoughts?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Other than what I've already said earlier, nope. Consider this a bump.

 

[Biothrax]

I like the idea of just keeping D&D magic as well as Elves, Dwarves and all of it but set it in Arthurian Britain. Could be really cool. I love Pendragon too. I guess it's a question if if one wants to literally convert Pendragon RPG to D20 or if one wants to play Arthurian Knights in a D&D world with all it's trappings..sort of an amalgamation of both. I like the second idea