Per-Encounter Powers

[FireLance]

It's not weak daily powers or the absence of them, but when encounter powers are given more weight.

Weak in relation to the PCs' baseline level of effectiveness, I mean. And I'm still not convinced that the problem is specifically with powers that are regained after a short rest compared to raising the PCs' baseline level of effectiveness by other means, e.g. more powerful at-will abilities, additional magic items or simple level gains.

 

[YRUSirius]

Limited short rest features will broaden the characters' power, not necessarily deepen (enhance? multiply?) it.

This could work out with Next's design statement for character advancement.

-YRUSirius

 

[Abstruse]

I'd argue that HP are already kinda encounter-based in Next, because you could heal a good amount with a short rest (HD healing) without magic with a healing kit.

Not remotely to the same degree. HD are far more limited. You get a random range of 1-6 or 1-10 back per level, which is around half your HP. Meanwhile in 4e, you get between 1.5 times to 2.5 times your HP back through healing surges (since they're equal to 1/4 your HP and classes range from 6 to 10 surges).

Weak in relation to the PCs' baseline level of effectiveness, I mean. And I'm still not convinced that the problem is specifically with powers that are regained after a short rest compared to raising the PCs' baseline level of effectiveness by other means, e.g. more powerful at-will abilities, additional magic items or simple level gains.

Because in a balanced game system, all those other power gains are balanced against monsters. A level 2 party and a level 3 party of the same class/build/stats/etc. fighting a level 4 monster (or a monster worth 400XP or however they're classified in Next) isn't going to be that much difference. The level 4 party is going to have an easier time of it by dealing more damage, more combat options, more spells, and more HP. But the differences aren't going to be incredibly huge differences and both parties will be challenged...just one a bit more than the other.

 

[YRUSirius]

Not remotely to the same degree. HD are far more limited. You get a random range of 1-6 or 1-10 back per level, which is around half your HP. Meanwhile in 4e, you get between 1.5 times to 2.5 times your HP back through healing surges (since they're equal to 1/4 your HP and classes range from 6 to 10 surges).

That's why I said kinda. The mechanic is the same, the amount not so much.

-YRUSirius

 

[FireLance]

Because in a balanced game system, all those other power gains are balanced against monsters. A level 2 party and a level 3 party of the same class/build/stats/etc. fighting a level 4 monster (or a monster worth 400XP or however they're classified in Next) isn't going to be that much difference. The level 4 party is going to have an easier time of it by dealing more damage, more combat options, more spells, and more HP. But the differences aren't going to be incredibly huge differences and both parties will be challenged...just one a bit more than the other.

And what exactly about powers that are recovered after a short rest makes it more difficult to balance them against monsters compared to at-will powers, magic items and power increases from level gains?

 

[Pseudopsyche]

What I don't get is the difference between a situation where you only have at-will powers and a situation where you also get powers that are regained after a short rest.

If adding short-rest powers makes no difference to scenario design and game balance, why include them? What if every 4E encounter power was usable at-will, and every at-will power were upgraded to pack the same punch as an encounter power? Maybe I would see fewer encounters devolve into a grind after the PCs' blow through their short-rest powers.

Perhaps this is the problem with short-rest powers: they front load the PCs' effectiveness, allowing them to overwhelm lesser encounters with powers they will recharge before the next encounter. Medium encounters become a drag when the party hordes its daily powers. Some DMs might learn to gravitate towards the hard set-piece encounters.

 

[Abstruse]

And what exactly about powers that are recovered after a short rest makes it more difficult to balance them against monsters compared to at-will powers, magic items and power increases from level gains?

Micromanagement. If you have an encounter-based design, you have to balance each and every encounter to make sure it's challenging without being overpowering.

If you have a daily-based design, you just have to make sure no particular encounter is going to TPK. Even weak encounters are going to chip away at resources and provide some level of challenge managing those resources. Far less stress and need to micromanage and balance every single encounter.

 

[FireLance]

If adding short-rest powers makes no difference to scenario design and game balance, why include them? What if every 4E encounter power was usable at-will, and every at-will power were upgraded to pack the same punch as an encounter power? Maybe I would see fewer encounters devolve into a grind after the PCs' blow through their short-rest powers.

Perhaps this is the problem with short-rest powers: they front load the PCs' effectiveness, allowing them to overwhelm lesser encounters with powers they will recharge before the next encounter. Medium encounters become a drag when the party hordes its daily powers. Some DMs might learn to gravitate towards the hard set-piece encounters.

Well, I like them as a player because they increase my tactical options. But good point on the front-loading of effectiveness in a fight.

 

[FireLance]

Micromanagement. If you have an encounter-based design, you have to balance each and every encounter to make sure it's challenging without being overpowering.

If you have a daily-based design, you just have to make sure no particular encounter is going to TPK. Even weak encounters are going to chip away at resources and provide some level of challenge managing those resources. Far less stress and need to micromanage and balance every single encounter.

You are still making a comparison between a scenario in which you have daily powers and a situation in which you do not. All such arguments support adding daily powers. They do not support taking away powers that are regained after a short rest.

If you want to argue that you should take away powers that are regained after a short rest, you need to show how combat balance becomes more difficult in a situation in which you have powers that are regained after a short rest, compared to a situation in which you only have at-will powers.

 

[Sigdel]

Except that it flat out does force that style of gameplay. Again, take 4e as an example (because it's the only game I know of with encounter-based resources). Try to convert one of the old 1st edition modules to 4e, sticking as close to the source material as possible, and see how well it works. I've tried. It doesn't. Most encounters become pointless wastes of time because it's a foregone conclusion that the PCs are going to win the encounter and do so without expending any significant resources.

Hell, let's do it with Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of Chaos. Area A where the kobolds are. In 4e, the first encounter or two are wastes of time. The PCs are going to slaughter the couple of kobolds they find and do so without expending anything. And if even one PC wins initiative or they get surprise, it's going to happen without any reinforcements to balance the encounter. Flip side, you have the room with the "up to 40" kobolds in it. In a daily-based game, the PCs can horde their resources and have an acceptable challenge in that room if they choose their ground. An encounter-based game, that's a TPK. They're going to use up their encounter resources too quickly and their daily abilities aren't going to be helpful (except for the couple that are AoEs). Even if you turn that room into nothing but minions to have the same balance, it's just flat out not going to work unless the PCs also choose their ground, forcing a bottleneck or something like that in which case you're right back where you started with a boring, pointless encounter.

Let's go the other way and take a 4e adventure and convert it to Pathfinder. I'm going to pick the Storm Tower adventure from Dungeon magazine because it's one I have done this conversion on and it's probably the only well-known 4e adventure due to being the one played during the second set of Penny Arcade podcasts.

The group comes up on the tower and finds a couple of humans archer/cultists and some zombies out front. Fight happens, and they probably win. Then they slip into the next room and fight a bunch of monsters. Then they go into the next room and face a puzzle. Then the big final encounter with the adventure's boss. It still works under a Pathfinder/Next style game even with a direct conversion.

If you want encounter-based play, you can get it from a daily-resource system with minimal fuss. If you want daily-based play, you can not get it from an encounter-based system without a crapload of work and usually a lot of house-rules.

Going to have to disagree with you. I have converted Keep on The Boarderlands and Clerics Challenge II to 4e. Successfully. Right now my brother is working on a X-Crawl adventure for 4e Gamma World.

It's all on how you approach the conversion.