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Per-Encounter Powers

YRUSirius

First Post
I see this argument tossed around a lot by people who like encounter powers, but I am honest-to-god curious: In what cases would you NOT take a short rest after an encounter? And how frequently do such cases actually occur in game?

Edit - After all, it's only 5 minutes. It's not like an extended rest that requires 6 hours.

Imagine the following:

What if a short rest doesn't give a PC 60% of his combat prowess back but only 10%? Then the 5/10 minute short rest might help them pushing forward a little longer without needing a long rest.

If every character has only 1 to 2 non-magic features that reset on a short rest (fighter's surge, a brutal strike like feature for the fighter, thief's knack, halfling's luck, barbarian's rage, bard's song, etc.), then a short rest doesn't give them their whole power back. When they only have half their hitpoints left they could still try to take the risk to push forward, because they know they will still have a trick up their sleeves. But it could go horribly wrong too. Especially with D&D Next's new found combat swinginess.

Personally, I'm just advocating a change of the "normal" people's (fighter, rogue) feature recharge rate from 2/day to 1/short rest because a 2/day seems too artificial to me and 1/short rest seems more natural to me.

I don't want a level 10 fighter with 10 different encounter abilities but I don't want "daily spells" for a level 10 fighter either...

-YRUSirius
 

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FireLance

Legend
Did that explain it a little bit better?
Yes, but it seems to me that the problem is not so much the presence of powers that are regained after a short rest as it is the absence of daily powers. Fights that are too easy are simply a matter of adjusting baseline PC effectiveness, as I mentioned, no different from adjusting it for level increases. Giving the PCs the spike capability to deal with tougher fights is a matter of adding daily powers.

If you think about it, you would face exactly the same problems if the PCs only had access to at-will powers. You would face the same narrow range between a fight that is not too easy and a fight that is not too difficult. Add powers that are regained after a short rest and you increase the range - having a series of fights against weaker opponents with no opportunity to take a short rest in between each fight, for example. Add daily powers and you get the spike capability that allows the PCs to take on a very tough fight or to turn the tide after a run of bad luck.

So really, it seems to me that the solution to avoiding the problems you mentioned is not the removal of powers that are regained after a short rest, but the addition of daily powers.
 

Abstruse

Legend
Yes, but it seems to me that the problem is not so much the presence of powers that are regained after a short rest as it is the absence of daily powers. Fights that are too easy are simply a matter of adjusting baseline PC effectiveness, as I mentioned, no different from adjusting it for level increases. Giving the PCs the spike capability to deal with tougher fights is a matter of adding daily powers.

If you think about it, you would face exactly the same problems if the PCs only had access to at-will powers. You would face the same narrow range between a fight that is not too easy and a fight that is not too difficult. Add powers that are regained after a short rest and you increase the range - having a series of fights against weaker opponents with no opportunity to take a short rest in between each fight, for example. Add daily powers and you get the spike capability that allows the PCs to take on a very tough fight or to turn the tide after a run of bad luck.

So really, it seems to me that the solution to avoiding the problems you mentioned is not the removal of powers that are regained after a short rest, but the addition of daily powers.
Adding more daily powers may fix the problem with big encounters, but you're still left with any sort of guerrilla tactics or slowly whittling down an opponent being completely useless. They're not going to use those daily powers if their encounter powers are doing the job. Which means you have to up the challenge on the encounter which shifts the design to encounter-based and all the problems I mentioned above.

Also, adding more powers only adds more rules and more complexity. You end up with 4e all over again - requiring a character generator in order to make a character, massive character sheets, and intimidating new players with information overload very easily. And, well, we already have that game. It's called Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition.
 

FireLance

Legend
Adding more daily powers may fix the problem with big encounters, but you're still left with any sort of guerrilla tactics or slowly whittling down an opponent being completely useless. They're not going to use those daily powers if their encounter powers are doing the job. Which means you have to up the challenge on the encounter which shifts the design to encounter-based and all the problems I mentioned above.
Yes, but it is still not clear to me how increasing PC baseline effectiveness by adding powers that are regained after a short rest is any different from increasing PC baseline effectiveness through gaining levels or magic items. In all cases, you need to increase the baseline difficulty of the monsters encountered if you want a challenging fight.

Also, adding more powers only adds more rules and more complexity. You end up with 4e all over again - requiring a character generator in order to make a character, massive character sheets, and intimidating new players with information overload very easily. And, well, we already have that game. It's called Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition.
Complexity is a separate issue and (IMO) one that can be managed. One could argue that the real issue with respect to complexity is not so much the rate at which the powers are regained as it is the number of them.
 

Abstruse

Legend
Yes, but it is still not clear to me how increasing PC baseline effectiveness by adding powers that are regained after a short rest is any different from increasing PC baseline effectiveness through gaining levels or magic items. In all cases, you need to increase the baseline difficulty of the monsters encountered if you want a challenging fight.

Complexity is a separate issue and (IMO) one that can be managed. One could argue that the real issue with respect to complexity is not so much the rate at which the powers are regained as it is the number of them.
Okay, discounting complexity. The issue with encounter-based design for characters is that it forces encounter based design on DMs. Yeah, I keep repeating that and trying examples, so I'm going to try a different tactic by comparing apples and oranges. Yeah, I'm doing it.

You can plant one of two trees in your garden to give you fruit - an apple tree or an orange tree. If you plant an apple tree, it's going to give you 5 apples at the end of every month but the apples won't go bad for a month. Meanwhile, the orange tree is going to give you 1 orange at the end of every week, but the orange will go bad at the end of the week.

In both cases, you can eat one fruit per week, either eating the orange as it drops or by saving your apples and only eating one per week. What you can't do though is use more than 1 orange at a time - it's going to go bad before you get another one. So if you get really hungry, you can eat all five apples at once and just not have any fruit until the end of the month. But if you get really hungry, you still only have that one orange to eat.

Now you have an evil squirrel. The squirrel sneaks in and gobbles up one piece of fruit at the end of the week. If you planted the orange tree, it's not a big deal - that orange was about to go bad anyway. You just get a new orange the next day, whoop-dee-doo. But if you planted the apple tree, it's now a big deal. You had 5 apples but now you have 4. At the end of the next week, you're down to 3. That evil squirrel is slowly taking away all your apples and if you were saving them up for the end of the month because you knew you might be very hungry then, that's a big deal.

That's what the resource difference is like. I have no idea if that analogy makes a damn bit of sense, but I'm running low on ways to explain it. If you have an encounter-based design where the majority of the abilities that the characters have recharge at the end of a short rest, then any encounter that in and of itself doesn't challenge them is a waste.

There's no tension because any resources they expend they will get back at the end of the encounter. There's no difficulty because they can expend those resources to do more damage or be more accurate. There's actually no point whatsoever to the encounter because it doesn't affect the game in any meaningful way, it just eats up time. You're better off just telling the players "You killed a couple of goblins standing out front and got 75XP each" and saving yourself a bunch of time. The players winning the encounter without expending any meaningful resources that will impact the rest of the adventure is so statistically likely that it makes having the encounter in the first place a waste of time and energy. In order for an encounter to have any meaning whatsoever, the players have to be challenged in each and every encounter, putting them at risk of dying or forcing them to use what few daily resources they have. Any encounter that doesn't do that isn't worth running.

He's dead! Everybody's dead! Everybody is dead, Dave!

If you still don't get it, run the following scenario in both Pathfinder and 4e with a group of first level characters - same number of characters (at least 3 and up to 5) of the same general types (try to match classes/roles when possible) in each. "Your guide has finally led you to the goblin caves, but he starts acting twitchy and nervous, glancing to a large rock 20 feet across and 20 feet high. Your Sense Motive check is successful and you realize he's set you up! Your Perception check indicates you notice the poisoned dagger he's tried to secretly slip into his hand! You're still out of sight of the caves, so you might have a chance to save this if you act now! Roll initiative." The enemy in this case should be a non-minion non-solo of Level 2 in both cases, preferably something with a lot of dexterity and finesse but lower AC and HP, a skirmisher in 4e and a PC-race rogue in Pathfinder. If you don't have Pathfinder, 3.5 or 3rd works just as well.

That is almost exactly the set-up when I realized how pointless it is to try to have "small" encounters in 4e compared to Pathfinder/3.5/3rd/2nd/1st/etc. The only difference is that the PCs were level 3 and the enemy was a Level 4 Doppelganger. The fight was entirely pointless because the PCs had far too many resources they could throw at the enemy without worrying about losing them. They could throw their encounter powers (doing more damage and/or being more accurate) without having to worry about needing them later because immediately after, they could take a short rest and get them all back. The doppelganger didn't stand a chance, and after two turns I just stopped the whole thing and told them they won without even finishing combat.

I believe I am now officially out of ways to explain this concept. If you still can't get it, please say so and maybe someone else will have a way to explain it that will make more sense for you.
 

FireLance

Legend
I believe I am now officially out of ways to explain this concept. If you still can't get it, please say so and maybe someone else will have a way to explain it that will make more sense for you.
I do get the difference between a situation where you have daily powers and a situation where you do not. And frankly, that is what you're explaining.

What I don't get is the difference between a situation where you only have at-will powers and a situation where you also get powers that are regained after a short rest.

If there is a difference in the first, and no difference in the second (apart from an increased baseline effectiveness which, as I have said, could also come from gaining more levels or magic items), then the problem is not adding powers that can be regained after a short rest, but taking away daily powers.
 
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Abstruse

Legend
I do get the difference between a situation where you have daily powers and a situation where you do not. And frankly, that is what you're explaining.

What I don't get is the difference between a situation where you only have at-will powers and a situation where you also get powers that are regained after a short rest.

If there is a difference in the first, and no difference in the second (apart from an increased baseline effectiveness which, as I have said, could also come from gaining more levels or magic items), then the problem is not adding powers that can be regained after a short rest, but taking away daily powers.
You're forgetting one big resource here: Hit Points. The difference between at-will only and at-will + encounter (with no dailies) is negligible and when HP refresh is what will swing that from an encounter-based design to a turn-based design. If HP refresh at the end of the encounter (either just refreshing or through healing surges), then both of those two will be encounter-based. If the former is structured so that HP refresh at the end of each turn, then the former will be a turn-based design. Which frankly I don't even want to begin trying to break down.

If you're trying to talk about the rogue and fighter classes (which may be where the confusion comes from on my part trying to re-re-re-explain the same thing), then their at-will abilities don't outweigh the fact that they have two big daily resources - hit points and hit dice. For wizards and clerics, they have at-will abilities as well but also have those two daily resources plus spells (with the cleric having an X-per-day channel divinity as well). The reason why I'm discounting those at-will resources is because they don't affect how the game plays in this particular matter. They're resources that are never depleted.

If you add in a few mechanics that refresh at the end of every encounter or after a short rest (it's the same thing just different wording, at least how I'm using the terms), then it's still going to be a daily-based game because the bulk of character resources are still only refreshed at the end of the day - HP, HD, spells, and channel divinity. But the more encounter powers you add to the game, the more you're going to shift that balance. At some point, the balance will shift entirely and it will be encounter-based again as the resources that refresh daily (and thus are used up more slowly over the adventure) are going to be less important than the ones that refresh at the end of each short rest. And at that point you lose a lot of flexibility in how a DM can write an adventure that's both interesting and challenging.
 

FireLance

Legend
If you add in a few mechanics that refresh at the end of every encounter or after a short rest (it's the same thing just different wording, at least how I'm using the terms), then it's still going to be a daily-based game because the bulk of character resources are still only refreshed at the end of the day - HP, HD, spells, and channel divinity. But the more encounter powers you add to the game, the more you're going to shift that balance. At some point, the balance will shift entirely and it will be encounter-based again as the resources that refresh daily (and thus are used up more slowly over the adventure) are going to be less important than the ones that refresh at the end of each short rest. And at that point you lose a lot of flexibility in how a DM can write an adventure that's both interesting and challenging.
Right. That's a more nuanced argument than "adding encounter powers forces the DM to adopt encounter-based design". I still think the problem is not so much powers that are regained after a short rest as much as it is relatively weak daily powers or the absence of them. The former could be also be caused by giving the PCs powerful at-will abilities, for example.

And, as has been pointed out, all D&D PCs have traditionally had daily resources, whether it is hit points, healing surges/Hit Dice, or spells. Solving the problem then becomes a matter of ensuring that the average fight is tough enough to deplete at least some of these resources. This can be done by reducing the PCs' baseline effectiveness, but it can also be done by increasing the difficulty of the average fight.
 

Abstruse

Legend
Right. That's a more nuanced argument than "adding encounter powers forces the DM to adopt encounter-based design".

That's the point I've been making since I hopped into this thread, just simplified it to "encounter-based design" to keep from having to re-type that long statement constantly. Same reason I keep saying "encounter powers" instead of "powers that are regained after a short rest". Just less typing and, at least in the way I'm using the terms, they mean the exact same thing and in fact I use the latter as definition for the former.

I still think the problem is not so much powers that are regained after a short rest as much as it is relatively weak daily powers or the absence of them. The former could be also be caused by giving the PCs powerful at-will abilities, for example.
It's not weak daily powers or the absence of them, but when encounter powers are given more weight. In 1st-2nd, HP and spells were daily resources while everything else was pretty much at-will. 3.x/PF; HP, spells, spell-like abilities, turn undead, and pretty much every other class or race ability was daily-based.

In 4e, daily powers and healing surges were daily-based while HP, encounter powers, and action points (slightly more limited) were encounter-based. This gave far more weight to the encounter than it did to the day. Even if daily powers were more frequent or more powerful, it still wouldn't shift the balance enough. If there were no daily powers, it would completely remove anything daily-based from the game except healing surges.

In Next as it's currently presented, there are no encounter-based powers with HP, HD, spells, and channel divinity being daily-based. If you added in a few encounter powers, the game would still be focused on the daily. However, if you shifted any of those to encounter-based as well (such as increasing HD to the amounts that healing surges were available in 4e and making some spells encounter-based), you'd shift the game.

And, as has been pointed out, all D&D PCs have traditionally had daily resources, whether it is hit points, healing surges/Hit Dice, or spells. Solving the problem then becomes a matter of ensuring that the average fight is tough enough to deplete at least some of these resources. This can be done by reducing the PCs' baseline effectiveness, but it can also be done by increasing the difficulty of the average fight.
That's actually the problem. The more weight you put on encounter resources, the more challenging you have to make each encounter. And that diminishes daily-based design so you have the problem of the DM having to make every single encounter challenging in and of itself, which increases prep time and makes it that much harder to design an adventure because more time has to be spent on each encounter, making sure it's challenging without being overpowering. And that's where you lose me. I've got a game for that style of play already, it's called Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition.
 

YRUSirius

First Post
In Next as it's currently presented, there are no encounter-based powers with HP, HD, spells, and channel divinity being daily-based. If you added in a few encounter powers, the game would still be focused on the daily. However, if you shifted any of those to encounter-based as well (such as increasing HD to the amounts that healing surges were available in 4e and making some spells encounter-based), you'd shift the game.
I'd argue that HP are already kinda encounter-based in Next, because you could heal a good amount with a short rest (HD healing) without magic with a healing kit.

-YRUSirius
 

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