Per-Encounter Powers

[Siberys]

I just simply disagree that using encounter-based resources forces encounter-based play. It's already been noted an encounter power is more like a "Short Rest Recharge" power - and /that/ wouldn't wouldn't force encounter-based play.

And then it might be that I /like/ encounter-based design, preferring to build by scene than by location. I admit, maybe it wouldn't work for dungeon crawls - but that's a /big/ maybe.

As for tracking, yes, it is an issue - I've lost HP sheets between sessions more times than I care to count. In-session tracking is one thing, and is aided by memory, but it's crazy easy to forget or lose information between sessions. I'd just as soon not screw around with it.

 

[Herschel]

The problem is that encounters-based resource management forces that sort of design structure on all adventures. Every encounter has to be a challenge and balanced individually against the party or it's either a waste of time because it's too easy or it's overwhelming in its difficulty.

Why? I have pushover encounters at times and we don't always use the grid for them either. I also have big, knock-down/drag-out encounters where the party needs to use everything they have or they get trounced. Encounter management and daily management aren't really any different, Encounter is just easier to keep track of in segmented campaign play. If all they ever use is encounter powers, they'll still have the pushover ones but they won't survive the big ones.

 

[keterys]

I think it is exceedingly critical for everyone involved in the discussion to understand that they're not powers you can automatically use every encounter, but powers that come back when you rest.

They just don't require as long a rest as a wizard's spells normally do.

So, you don't need to plan every area of an adventure assuming they have them, any more that you have to plan every area of an adventure assuming they have every single daily power available to them. (Or maybe you _do_ for both, if you want to apply that logic, but that's a different argument)

I will say that there's a hidden advantage, too - it lets you handwave more easily, when you want to. So, the doppelganger is a threat if he can add onto an existing combat, but not so much if he's alone. They figure it out while he's alone, he fails to make an immediate break for it and you just ask if they're capturing him and move straight to the roleplay. No need to roll out two rounds of combat that don't truly have any bearing, but I'm happy to let the PCs describe to me how they did it.

 

[Abstruse]

I just simply disagree that using encounter-based resources forces encounter-based play. It's already been noted an encounter power is more like a "Short Rest Recharge" power - and /that/ wouldn't wouldn't force encounter-based play.

Except that it flat out does force that style of gameplay. Again, take 4e as an example (because it's the only game I know of with encounter-based resources). Try to convert one of the old 1st edition modules to 4e, sticking as close to the source material as possible, and see how well it works. I've tried. It doesn't. Most encounters become pointless wastes of time because it's a foregone conclusion that the PCs are going to win the encounter and do so without expending any significant resources.

Hell, let's do it with Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of Chaos. Area A where the kobolds are. In 4e, the first encounter or two are wastes of time. The PCs are going to slaughter the couple of kobolds they find and do so without expending anything. And if even one PC wins initiative or they get surprise, it's going to happen without any reinforcements to balance the encounter. Flip side, you have the room with the "up to 40" kobolds in it. In a daily-based game, the PCs can horde their resources and have an acceptable challenge in that room if they choose their ground. An encounter-based game, that's a TPK. They're going to use up their encounter resources too quickly and their daily abilities aren't going to be helpful (except for the couple that are AoEs). Even if you turn that room into nothing but minions to have the same balance, it's just flat out not going to work unless the PCs also choose their ground, forcing a bottleneck or something like that in which case you're right back where you started with a boring, pointless encounter.

Let's go the other way and take a 4e adventure and convert it to Pathfinder. I'm going to pick the Storm Tower adventure from Dungeon magazine because it's one I have done this conversion on and it's probably the only well-known 4e adventure due to being the one played during the second set of Penny Arcade podcasts.

The group comes up on the tower and finds a couple of humans archer/cultists and some zombies out front. Fight happens, and they probably win. Then they slip into the next room and fight a bunch of monsters. Then they go into the next room and face a puzzle. Then the big final encounter with the adventure's boss. It still works under a Pathfinder/Next style game even with a direct conversion.

If you want encounter-based play, you can get it from a daily-resource system with minimal fuss. If you want daily-based play, you can not get it from an encounter-based system without a crapload of work and usually a lot of house-rules.

 

[YRUSirius]

Erm, nope it DOES NOT force it automatically.

4Es overall design forced it.

But the recharge time of a few abilities in a totally new system does not matter a lot.

-YRUSirius

 

[Abstruse]

Erm, nope it DOES NOT force it automatically.

4Es overall design forced it.

But the recharge time of a few abilities in a totally new system does not matter a lot.

-YRUSirius

A few abilities? No. In fact, I'd like it if the fighter or rogue got some "recharge after a short rest" abilities in some themes to give them a boost in overall ability while still feeling thematically different than casters...or any other non-casting class like if they do a warlord.

Every class having multiple abilities? Yes, it does radically alter the game.

 

[YRUSirius]

Clerics and Wizards don't have them.

(Although the channel divinity feature could work on a short rest recharge time).

-YRUSirius

 

[TwoSix]

If you want encounter-based play, you can get it from a daily-resource system with minimal fuss. If you want daily-based play, you can not get it from an encounter-based system without a crapload of work and usually a lot of house-rules.

And ideally, you can get either from a system that supports both but gives you dials to adjust the ratio. In an old-school adventure, encounters are simply another form of innate ability, just like a fighter's increased attack bonus and HP. You don't plan for them any more than you plan for the thief to get a backstab.

 

[Remathilis]

Good riddance to "encounter" powers.

Yeah! Good riddance to "daily" powers, too!

This always makes me think...

D&D has two resources that renew daily: spell slots and x/day abilities (paladin smite, rage, bardsong, wild shape). You can change the measure (from raging 1/day to raging 6 rounds/day), but in the end what should the restriction be for class abilities if not uses/day? A mage with infinite spells slots and cool-down time? Let a barbarian rage during every encounter? What becomes the restriction in such cases?

 

[Kinak]

This always makes me think...

D&D has two resources that renew daily: spell slots and x/day abilities (paladin smite, rage, bardsong, wild shape). You can change the measure (from raging 1/day to raging 6 rounds/day), but in the end what should the restriction be for class abilities if not uses/day? A mage with infinite spells slots and cool-down time? Let a barbarian rage during every encounter? What becomes the restriction in such cases?

Also hit points (to one degree or another) and healing surges/hit dice, when they exist.

There's definitely something to be said for having everything expendable be on the same schedule. It makes book keeping far easier and keeps everyone on the same "adventuring day," regardless of how long that might be.

I'd honestly be happy if they just said "everything returns after resting. In some campaigns, that may take minutes. In other campaigns, it'll be weeks." It would be a grittiness, "what HP mean," and narrative speed dial right in the rules.

Cheers!
Kinak