D&D 5E PHB Feats taken - RESULTS

[DeJoker]

I do, however, think it is something that should be available, if in limited amounts. The Rogue and the Bard each get Expertise for only two skills at a time, and this feat should follow that same maximum.

Personally I think it should be half what the Class gets actually at most, and should I choose to implement it for my game as an option that is what I would do. Expertise in 1 Skill or Tool and I am sure it would get picked up by a lot of folks

 

[Prism]

I just wanted to add that the DMG does provide an option for learning skills and feats during downtime (P231). What it doesn't do is indicate the relative cost

So a DM would need to map this to the price and rarity tables. For example if you assume that the PHB tool learning option is 'common' and we know it costs 250gp, a skill proficiency could be 'uncommon' and cost 2500gp and a feat 'rare' and cost 25000gp. You can come up with any pricing based upon how closely you equate tool, skill and feats.

 

[clearstream]

The more I think about Expertise and Bounded Accuracy, the more I want to limit Expertise. I do, however, think it is something that should be available, if in limited amounts. The Rogue and the Bard each get Expertise for only two skills at a time, and this feat should follow that same maximum.

TRAINED
You may take this feat more than once.

You gain any combination of the following benefits, adding up to 10 points:

5 points: Increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
4 points: Learn a cantrip⁽¹⁾, or gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor⁽²⁾ and shields, or heavy armor⁽³⁾.
3 points: Gain proficiency in simple weapons, martial weapons⁽⁴⁾, or shields.
2 points: Gain proficiency in a skill⁽⁵⁾.
1 point: Gain proficiency in a tool⁽⁶⁾, language, or weapon.

⁽¹⁾If you learn a cantrip, you may choose Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma as the spellcasting ability modifier for that cantrip.
⁽²⁾You must be proficient in simple weapons before gaining proficiency in martial weapons.
⁽³⁾You must be proficient in light armor before gaining proficiency in medium armor.
⁽⁴⁾You must be proficient in medium armor before gaining proficiency in heavy armor.
⁽⁵⁾⁽⁶⁾Expertise: If you choose a skill or tool that you are already proficient in, then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that skill or tool. You may gain both proficiency and expertise in a skill or tool through one use of this feat. You may gain expertise in at most two skills or tools each time you select this feat.
⁽⁶⁾At the DM's discretion, proficiency for a particularly useful tool may cost 2 points rather than 1 point.​

Just to acknowledge that where I am with my assessment of Trained is that I like the idea of broadening Skilled to include languages (effectively, improves Linguist substantially) and I don't mind (but am not really for) grouping weapons in there. Cantrips and armor about work. It probably is too good to offer any ability score increase as an option, but I've flip-flopped on this and maybe it works.

I can't get on board with expertise. For me, that puts this feat out of my campaign. If it cost 3 points, or was worse than actual Expertise in some way, that could work.

 

[ro]

Just to acknowledge that where I am with my assessment of Trained is that I like the idea of broadening Skilled to include languages (effectively, improves Linguist substantially) and I don't mind (but am not really for) grouping weapons in there. Cantrips and armor about work. It probably is too good to offer any ability score increase as an option, but I've flip-flopped on this and maybe it works.

I can't get on board with expertise. For me, that puts this feat out of my campaign. If it cost 3 points, or was worse than actual Expertise in some way, that could work.

What do you think of replacing Expertise with Advantage? This wouldn't step on the Rogue's toes at all, and would even be a further benefit on top of the Rogue's Expertise.

In the ASI option, the intent is to balance everything against a full +2 ASI anyway. Allowing a +1 pick retains half-feats like Moderately Armored, with a very slight boost, while also allowing a combination light + medium + skill (but no ASI) feat. I think it will be more versatile and more likely to be chosen this way, but still in line with existing feat power level.

Also, I removed single weapon proficiency in exchange for more classes of weapons, adding all melee, all ranged, and all firearms. The reason for this is to prevent game-breaking access to proficiency in, say, the Artificer's thundercannon, should such weapons become official.

TRAINED
You may take this feat more than once.

You gain any combination of the following benefits, adding up to 10 points:

5 points: Increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
4 points: Learn a cantrip⁽¹⁾, or gain proficiency in light armor, medium armor⁽²⁾ and shields, or heavy armor⁽³⁾.
3 points: Gain proficiency in shields or a class of weapons (simple, martial⁽⁴⁾, melee, ranged, firearms).
2 points: Gain proficiency in a skill or advantage^{(5, 6)} on an existing skill or tool proficiency.
1 point: Gain proficiency in a tool⁽⁶⁾ or language.

⁽¹⁾If you learn a cantrip, you may choose Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma as the spellcasting ability modifier for that cantrip.
⁽²⁾You must be proficient in simple weapons before gaining proficiency in martial weapons.
⁽³⁾You must be proficient in light armor before gaining proficiency in medium armor.
⁽⁴⁾You must be proficient in medium armor before gaining proficiency in heavy armor.
⁽⁵⁾You may gain this benefit at most twice when you select this feat.
⁽⁶⁾At the DM's discretion, tool proficiency or skill or tool advantage may cost an extra point for a particularly useful tool or skill.
* You may gain both a proficiency and its prerequisite through one use of this feat.​

 

[clearstream]

What do you think of replacing Expertise with Advantage? This wouldn't step on the Rogue's toes at all, and would even be a further benefit on top of the Rogue's Expertise.

That's an interesting thought! It feels like a correct observation to note that Expertise in Trained ends up helping classes that don't focus on skills more than it helps classes that do focus on them. Therefore crafting a mechanic that actually works for both makes a lot of sense.

Digging into the mechanic, advantage is worth about the same as Expertise at level 13-16. That's pretty strong. Plus stacking permanent advantage onto a skill, which might in turn gain Expertise from elsewhere, could be problematic for DMs (warp their narrative). Perhaps -

3 points: Choose one skill or tool that you are proficient in. You gain one talent die, which is a d4. When you make an ability check with the chosen skill or tool, you can expend one talent die to add it to the roll. You can only expend one talent die per ability check. You regain all your talent dice at the end of a long or short rest.

We might then contemplate using talent dice to fuel special actions linked to skills. So it becomes kind of extensible. A talent die is a talent die, so a player can gain more than one of them. As an aside, Trained could specify more tightly how it is used, e.g.

TRAINED
You can take this feat more than once.

You have 10 training points that you must allocate to the following benefits, at the listed costs.

 

[ro]

That's an interesting thought! It feels like a correct observation to note that Expertise in Trained ends up helping classes that don't focus on skills more than it helps classes that do focus on them. Therefore crafting a mechanic that actually works for both makes a lot of sense.

I'm glad you agree!

Digging into the mechanic, advantage is worth about the same as Expertise at level 13-16. That's pretty strong. Plus stacking permanent advantage onto a skill, which might in turn gain Expertise from elsewhere, could be problematic for DMs (warp their narrative).

That is a concern. There is precedent to giving permanent advantage: Deep Gnomes, for example, have permanent advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks in rocky terrain, which is easy to find. Gaining Expertise is still rather limited to Bards and Rogues, so the combo shouldn't be *too* frequent, though these are likely to pursue it. Also, limiting it to two skills per taking of the feat slows it down; no getting advantage on everything in one shot. And, as usual, disadvantage neutralizes advantage, no matter how much advantage you have!

Perhaps -

3 points: Choose one skill or tool that you are proficient in. You gain one talent die, which is a d4. When you make an ability check with the chosen skill or tool, you can expend one talent die to add it to the roll. You can only expend one talent die per ability check. You regain all your talent dice at the end of a long or short rest.

We might then contemplate using talent dice to fuel special actions linked to skills. So it becomes kind of extensible. A talent die is a talent die, so a player can gain more than one of them.

This is an interesting concept. It adds a new mechanic, unlike the rest of the feat. It is very similar to the Cleric's Guidance cantrip and to Bardic Inspiration. Do you think it would step on their toes too much as Expertise would for Bards and Rogues?

As an aside, Trained could specify more tightly how it is used, e.g.

TRAINED
You can take this feat more than once.

You have 10 training points that you must allocate to the following benefits, at the listed costs.

I like the clarity of this adjustment.

 

[clearstream]

That is a concern. There is precedent to giving permanent advantage: Deep Gnomes, for example, have permanent advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks in rocky terrain, which is easy to find. Gaining Expertise is still rather limited to Bards and Rogues, so the combo shouldn't be *too* frequent, though these are likely to pursue it. Also, limiting it to two skills per taking of the feat slows it down; no getting advantage on everything in one shot. And, as usual, disadvantage neutralizes advantage, no matter how much advantage you have!

Splatbook additions frequently don't represent the best balance, but they can be fun. Granting permanent advantage means a DM can effectively never impose disadvantage on those skill checks. As a DM, that would bother me.

This is an interesting concept. It adds a new mechanic, unlike the rest of the feat. It is very similar to the Cleric's Guidance cantrip and to Bardic Inspiration. Do you think it would step on their toes too much as Expertise would for Bards and Rogues?

True. It probably does. Bless, Guidance and Inspiration, and all that. But then, I would be fine with Trained simply omitting Expertise