Piracy And Other Malfeasance

[Tonguez]

An interesting thing about Drake: he began his career as a slavery-- or, at least, a pirate who hit slave ships and resold the "cargo." But he soured on the practice and actively fought against it. He made alliances with former slaves and even had one serve as his own private secretary (aside and all). At the same time, he continued to pirate.

When talking about protagonists as varying degrees of good vs evil, what do we do with things like that?

While I do acknowledge that Drake was part of the crew, it was John Hawkins who was the slaver, Drake was a 20 yr old apprentice seaman, so I personally dont think he should be held accountable for it.
Drake at 27 was also part of an expedition to Sierra Leone that allied with two local kings and afterwards was rewarded with captives, who were released when the ships faced Spanish opposition. Drake abandoned that expedition and was later accused of desertion. That was the last time he was involved with slavery, so while he did participate I take that as him following orders of his elders and eventually learning not to accept the status quo. Is a story arc but I dont know if it represents an alignment change per se

 

[payn]

Well, it doesn't in any regularized or granular way. However, when Gygax expounded on alignment back in the Strategic Review (vol 2, issue 1, February 1976), he did map the 4 alignment components (law/chaos, good/evil) as fields where a PC could drift around depending on how they behaved. Do more strongly lawful stuff, drift leftward toward there lawful edge, do more chaotic stuff, drift rightward, etc. So it was pretty much envisioned that a character's alignment would be shifting upward away from the evil edge at the bottom of the diagram by turning away from being a slaver to fighting it - from deeper evil toward a shallower one, as it were.

Sure alignment shifts need some form of idea to work. Many video games have used a point for point system to manage that change, but its always been left vague for table purposes.

 

[Reynard]

Thats the million dollar question and what alignment isnt built to do. It doesn't tell you that doing A, B, and C makes you level 3 evil and that stopping C makes you level 2. An alignment shift is a character arc of large proportion. Its not forgetting to tip the church once, or for stealing from a merchant the other day. It's a willingness to engage in regular activity of drastically different nature. In the case of Drake, its not that big a shift in his willingness to kill to take for himself. I wouldn't shift his alignment for this. Though, if my character was weighing whether to deal with him or not, its certainly a factor that would change the calculus of the decision. I (the character) chooses that though and alignment doesn't.

Was it Dragonlance that had the active alignment tracking chart?

 

[Reynard]

While I do acknowledge that Drake was part of the crew, it was John Hawkins who was the slaver, Drake was a 20 yr old apprentice seaman, so I personally dont think he should be held accountable for it.
Drake at 27 was also part of an expedition to Sierra Leone that allied with two local kings and afterwards was rewarded with captives, who were released when the ships faced Spanish opposition. Drake abandoned that expedition and was later accused of desertion. That was the last time he was involved with slavery, so while he did participate I take that as him following orders of his elders and eventually learning not to accept the status quo. Is a story arc but I dont know if it represents an alignment change per se

Probably best to stop before we wander into "just following orders" territory.

 

[payn]

Was it Dragonlance that had the active alignment tracking chart?

Perhaps, i'm not familiar with Dragonlance.

 

[Reynard]

Perhaps, i'm not familiar with Dragonlance.

Anyway, there have been at least a couple attempts at very precise, granular Alignment tracking systems from TSR itself. I remember trying to employ it as a kid and it being wonky, at best.

And I want to say: I appreciate that other people get something out of Alignment. I don't mean my dislike for it to suggest that people that find it useful are wrong. I just like to rail against it because I hate it. Unless, of course, it is actually what it says on the tin: a character or other being actually aligning with the forces of the universe.

My favorite version is Alignment as Birth Sign: you aren't neutral evil because of the way you act, you are NE because the planes were aligned in such a way at your birth and here we are. It doesn't control your behavior, but it does tell you what forces are interested in your destiny, and what forces see you as opposition.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, it doesn't in any regularized or granular way. However, when Gygax expounded on alignment back in the Strategic Review (vol 2, issue 1, February 1976), he did map the 4 alignment components (law/chaos, good/evil) as fields where a PC could drift around depending on how they behaved. Do more strongly lawful stuff, drift leftward toward there lawful edge, do more chaotic stuff, drift rightward, etc. So it was pretty much envisioned that a character's alignment would be shifting upward away from the evil edge at the bottom of the diagram by turning away from being a slaver to fighting it - from deeper evil toward a shallower one, as it were.

It only that, there were articles that mentioned things like being “NG, with Lawful tendencies” and so forth.

 

[Voadam]

Was it Dragonlance that had the active alignment tracking chart?

1e Dragonlance Adventures.

 

[Reynard]

1e Dragonlance Adventures.

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Wow. I had forgotten how punishing the alignment changes were.

 

[payn]

1e Dragonlance Adventures.

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Yeah, I have heard of this, but never used. I know some folks prefer a granular system, but I dont like the idea of appointing a value to each and every action a PC takes. I prefer a more general approach where it feels right when it feels right. You get more flexibility for everyone that way. Doesn't surprise me that this didnt catch on.