D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Paladin ... Divine Smite is a Spell now

[Vaalingrade]

Want to use an object?

Just cast Use Object.

Remember to make sure to cast Inhale/Exhale as a ritual every morning, as well as Ray's Bipedal Ambulation.

 

[Sir Brennen]

So the NPC should allow the caster to misty step right behind him after that attack? Or force him into a duel that he won't do well at? Or allow himself to be deafened and blinded, stunned and/or killed? Or... And that's if he somehow knows what's being cast.

As you've stated, the NPC doesn't know what's being cast, and I stated they only know what's likely when there's enough clues. And the NPC may not be able to prevent it, if they've had to use counterspell against another character that round, or they choose to save it for another character. The paladin isn't going to be the only threat. It's all strategy and weighed costs, which in general, will be in the paladin's favor that they won't have their smite counterspelled.

One thing all this does point out, though, is a bit of dissonance between the fiction vs the rule mechanics.

A Bonus Action is just that - a separate action in addition to your primary Action for the round. So, you attack then cast dimension door. Two separate actions, and one is not reliant on the other. And as a separate action, the dimension door is clearly a spell being cast, and a legit target for counterspell.

But the smite spells depend on a successful attack and are really part of it, in order to add the damage to the attack after the fact. The smite spell descriptions strongly imply this. Is that clear enough for an enemy spellcaster to be able to counterspell? Is there really enough time? The fiction of the spell raises these kinds of questions that might need further clarification.

 

[Maxperson]

And they still would not have been balanced, because they would cost a bonus action and Divine Smite didn't. This was literally my playtest feedback. If you are going to have an effect that does less damage, because it has a rider, AND a greater cost in the action economy, it isn't going to be balanced. The lessening of the damage balanced out of the rider. Nothing balanced the cost in the action economy of a bonus action needing to be spent for them.

So, there were two choices. All smite abilities were non-action, non-spells. Or all smite abilities were bonus action spells. Nothing else is balanced.

We disagree. The rider was plenty good enough for a small amount of reduced damage and a bonus action.

Misty Step is not a reaction to hitting with a weapon. Are you saying that the caster cannot know what triggered the spell? That seems strange.

It seems strange that the target isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a bonus action used after the attack(smite when hit) and a bonus action used after the attack(misty step)? Both are bonus actions used after the attack. The victim isn't going to be able to tell that the misty step was cast .05 seconds later than he took damage, so wasn't a smite.

But okay, which of those spells you just listed Misty Step, Compelled Duel, Divine Favor, Ensaring Strike, or Expeditious Retreat are worth counterspelling? I'm not going to count Divine Word because that isn't a paladin spell, and despite your protests there are actually quite a few ways to tell a high level paladin from a high level cleric, or Grasping Vine, because it ALSO isn't a paladin spell.

Nope. You don't get to ditch divine word, because the NPC can't tell the difference between a paladin and a war cleric on sight. The NPC likely doesn't know whether he's being attacked by a religious fighter with a holy symbol, a war cleric, a paladin or something else.

 

[Maxperson]

As you've stated, the NPC doesn't know what's being cast, and I stated they only know what's likely when there's enough clues. And the NPC may not be able to prevent it, if they've had to use counterspell against another character that round, or they choose to save it for another character. The paladin isn't going to be the only threat. It's all strategy and weighed costs, which in general, will be in the paladin's favor that they won't have their smite counterspelled.

One thing all this does point out, though, is a bit of dissonance between the fiction vs the rule mechanics.

A Bonus Action is just that - a separate action in addition to your primary Action for the round. So, you attack then cast dimension door. Two separate actions, and one is not reliant on the other. And as a separate action, the dimension door is clearly a spell being cast, and a legit target for counterspell.

But the smite spells depend on a successful attack and are really part of it, in order to add the damage to the attack after the fact. The smite spell descriptions strongly imply this. Is that clear enough for an enemy spellcaster to be able to counterspell? Is there really enough time? The fiction of the spell raises these kinds of questions that might need further clarification.

In my opinion, the dissonance is with making ANY of the smites into spells that can be cast after a hit. The hit damages as soon as it hits. There's no time for an action, bonus or otherwise. A bonus action can be part of the attack if cast first, but not if cast after. At least in the fiction.

 

[Nadan]

We disagree. The rider was plenty good enough for a small amount of reduced damage and a bonus action.

It isn't, at least when there is a divine smite that don't require bonus action. I never saw any players I have played with ever cast those smite spells. Those riders often also gate behind a save and require concentration. So not only you trade damage and bonus action, they also prevent you concentrate on more useful spell like Bless.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

So the NPC should allow the caster to misty step right behind him after that attack? Or force him into a duel that he won't do well at? Or allow himself to be deafened and blinded, stunned and/or killed? Or... And that's if he somehow knows what's being cast.

It's about battlefield triage decisions. The enemy NPC has to make a guess whether their side would be more hurt by the armored warrior casting a spell, or the mage's spell options that tend to be able to influence reality on a larger scale (Fireball, Slow, etc.)

If I am a paladin and an NPC counterspells my 2nd level divine smite, I sure as hell want my mage friend to teach them a lesson for not waiting to counter their big spell. As a player, I have no problem when an enemy uses their reactions/counterspells/legendary saves on my actions because it frees my allies to unleash their own power without reservation.

 

[Maxperson]

It isn't, at least when there is divine smite is that don't require bonus action. I never saw any players I have played with ever cast those smite spells.

Right, but they didn't cast them because you had to cast them in advance and might miss or lose concentration and never get the damage at all. Had they been castable after a hit, they'd have been used.

Those riders often also gate behind a save and require concentration.

That was the key, as well as not being able to cast after you hit. The save wasn't a big deal since most things could easily miss a save anyway. The change in the last packet to make those spells usable after a hit made them playable.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I think I mentioned this a few pages ago, but my preference would be to use the 2014 version of the smite spells, including changing divine smite to a spell, but lose concentration for them.

The typical use case in this scenario would be a paladin casts a smite spell using a Bonus Action at the beginning of his turn, then uses the Attack action, triggering the smite damage on a hit simultaneously. On a miss, the spell simply stays active until the paladin hits or a minute is up.

The only catch would be not having different smite spells stack, which is probably why they are concentration spells in the 2014 version. But this could be addressed by something in the wording of the spells, like "you can only have one smite spell active at a time."

 

[Clint_L]

My only note here. Its true a BBEG probably wouldn't counterspell divine smite. But they sure as heck would want to counter shining smite, that thing is a boss slayer!

The entire party gets advantage on the boss for the rest of the fight!

If it's that good the BBEG should have a chance to counter it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We disagree. The rider was plenty good enough for a small amount of reduced damage and a bonus action.

Okay, how is pushed 10 ft and knocked prone worth
1) Reduced Damage
2) Bonus action cost
3) 300 ft of sound that alerts everyone
4) Being vulnerable to all those anti-spell abilities.

For the same spell slot.

It seems strange that the target isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a bonus action used after the attack(smite when hit) and a bonus action used after the attack(misty step)? Both are bonus actions used after the attack. The victim isn't going to be able to tell that the misty step was cast .05 seconds later than he took damage, so wasn't a smite.

Why not? It isn't like the fiction is they swing, connect, cut through, re-establish their guard, then chant the spell to burst the wound with divine energy.

It seems incredibly reasonable to me that the caster can tell whether or not the spell was triggered by the hit.

Nope. You don't get to ditch divine word, because the NPC can't tell the difference between a paladin and a war cleric on sight. The NPC likely doesn't know whether he's being attacked by a religious fighter with a holy symbol, a war cleric, a paladin or something else.

To cast divine word, you need to be 13th level.

By 13th level, the paladin has Radiant Strikes, so their weapon is likely glowing or glimmering with divine energy, where a cleric's would not be. Additionally, they have three different aura effects. Allies always know where the Paladin's aura is, and if they are in it, it stands to reason there is a noticeable effect, especially to a trained spellcaster who is facing off against a 13th level party.

The enemies you are fighting at this level are not unfamiliar with what a paladin is. Heck, it is entirely possible they know you are a paladin because they scry'd you and saw you summoning your steed, which is a paladin exclusive ability.

Yes, you can argue they can't be certain, maybe you are a paladin 4 War cleric 13 and have Divine Word prepared, but you aren't making your case stronger by "well, the mage might counterspell thinking it was a 7th level spell, because they can't tell the difference" because if they counterspell and use a 7th level slot to stop your 1st level divine smite... I don't know many people who would call trading 2d8 damage for taking a 7th level spell slot off the table as a "bad thing"