Please rate Superior Expertise

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'm one of those 2 spoilsport that rated this feat ''Of limited use''.

When do you use it?

IMO it's only really useful in a very specific situation where

1 - You are facing a powerful melee based bad guy. Fire Giant for example.

2 - It's your turn (obviously, or you couldn't use the feat) and...

2a - you don't think you can kill it on your action

2b - you don't think that your combined actions + those of any ally that act before the monster can kill it.

3 - you have good reasons to believe that this monster will kill you on his turn if you keep your standard AC.

4 - There is no hope of being healed before it's the monster's turn to act.

Otherwise, you have to remember that offense is better than defense most of the time in any turn based game. The best way to survive is to slay your opponent swiftly. If you can substract 10 from your attack and still hit your opponent with regularity, you might as well use power attack to do 10 points of extra damage on each strike. It will kill the monster quicker and so protect you just as well.

No to mention that power attack is just one feat.

 

[hong]

Savvy opponents can also reduce the net effect of this feat by maximizes their Power Attack; they will only hit on a Nat 20, but it will be for a lot of damage.

Or they just ignore you and kill your friends, instead. Lots of defensive tactics, like Improved Invisibility, are more effective on paper than in reality for this reason.

Mind you, the exact same thing can be said of just about any tactic or feat, not just Superior Expertise. By this logic, you could say that Weapon Spec or Improved Crit aren't that good because they make the monsters concentrate on you, instead of the useless monk . This rather misses the point of the thread, I would think.

Superior Expertise is still good, because you might well be the guy who's left holding the short straw. Eg the rogue has just gone invisible, the wizard is flying out of reach, and the monk is bouncing around with Spring Attack. If everyone else has a nifty defensive tactic, it's probably a good idea to have a defensive tactic of your own.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's good if you need to have a real high AC! That won't help you all the time, but sometimes you'll be able to draw the attacks on yourself. The enemies have to attack you, but they have hard time actually hitting you. You may have the same problems, but that's OK, because your friends are taking care of the enemy (or use that time to plan the escape, rally, or patch the party up again...)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Mind you, the exact same thing can be said of just about any tactic or feat, not just Superior Expertise. By this logic, you could say that Weapon Spec or Improved Crit aren't that good because they make the monsters concentrate on you, instead of the useless monk . This rather misses the point of the thread, I would think.

Superior Expertise is still good, because you might well be the guy who's left holding the short straw.

I guess. Specialization and Improved Crit are active abilities that you have control over when you use them. Some people seem overly excited by this feat because of the large numeric modifier it can generate. I am just pointing out that these visions of invulnerability are a bit exagerated.

I did actually vote it as "average".

It is a useful enough feat for a few types of characters in a tight spot and in higher level play, but not notably superior to many alternatives. After all, if +5 to AC from normal Expertise on top of fighting defensively is not good enough, then maybe the feat you really need is Run.

 

[Caliban]

I'm one of those 2 spoilsport that rated this feat ''Of limited use''.

When do you use it?

IMO it's only really useful in a very specific situation where

1 - You are facing a powerful melee based bad guy. Fire Giant for example.

2 - It's your turn (obviously, or you couldn't use the feat) and...

2a - you don't think you can kill it on your action

2b - you don't think that your combined actions + those of any ally that act before the monster can kill it.

3 - you have good reasons to believe that this monster will kill you on his turn if you keep your standard AC.

4 - There is no hope of being healed before it's the monster's turn to act.

Otherwise, you have to remember that offense is better than defense most of the time in any turn based game. The best way to survive is to slay your opponent swiftly. If you can substract 10 from your attack and still hit your opponent with regularity, you might as well use power attack to do 10 points of extra damage on each strike. It will kill the monster quicker and so protect you just as well.

No to mention that power attack is just one feat.

Or you could arrange to be hasted (via Boots of Speed, potion of Haste, etc.) and only initiate the Superior Expertise during your extra partial action, after your normal turn.

That way you can do a full attack on your normal action with no penalties, and then use your extra partial action to make a single attack using Superior Expertise (maximum use), and your AC will remain pumped until your next action.

 

[Forrester]

I'd say it's average. I'd probably have taken it if I was a straight fighter, but I'm a bladesinger . . .

Not that this is on topic, but . . .

[RANT]
Gee, an elf with a "Y" in his name, an "ae" in his name, and given your signature file, an apostrophe as well.

How creative.
[/RANT]

Actually . . . I've been looking to send a max-minning powergamer elven bladesinger against my (totally humanoid) party. KaeYoss -- if you could send me a copy of your character (base stats, feats, items, etc. etc.), I'd greatly appreciate it. Seriously.
----------------

I rated Superior Expertise an '8' or '9'. At high, high levels, against creatures with huge bonuses to hit (like dragons), it may be the only way to survive.

On the other hand, if you're a Dragon, and you've got S.E., you can make yourself unhittable while dealing out damage. I disagree that Power Attack in those situations is necessarily superior.

 

[smetzger]

On the other hand, if you're a Dragon, and you've got S.E., you can make yourself unhittable while dealing out damage. I disagree that Power Attack in those situations is necessarily superior.

True and a Dragon would want to up his touch AC as much as possible to guard against the Harm spell.

6.55 after 47 votes. Puts it in the #2 spot just below Expert Tactician. Personally I think Blindsight, 5-foot radius is better.

1. Expert Tactician 7.86
2. Superior Expertise 6.55
3. Close-Quarters Fighting 5.42
4. Hold the Line 5.00
5. Blindsight, 5-foot radius 4.80
6. Fists of Iron 4.65
7. Death Blow 4.36
8. Feign Weakness 3.63
9. Extra Stunning Attacks 3.56
10. Dual Strike 3.43
11. Circle Kick 3.13
12. Eyes in the Back of Your Head 3.04
13. Eagle Claw Attack 2.73
14. Improved Overrun 2.68
15. Dirty Fighting 2.58

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Or you could arrange to be hasted (via Boots of Speed, potion of Haste, etc.) and only initiate the Superior Expertise during your extra partial action, after your normal turn.

That way you can do a full attack on your normal action with no penalties, and then use your extra partial action to make a single attack using Superior Expertise (maximum use), and your AC will remain pumped until your next action.

No, that won't work. The bonus applies to all the attacks you take in your turn, you can turn it on or off only at the beginning of your turn.

 

[Caliban]

No, that won't work. The bonus applies to all the attacks you take in your turn, you can turn it on or off only at the beginning of your turn.

You might want to try reading the feat again, because that's not what it says.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Not that this is on topic, but . . .

[RANT]
Gee, an elf with a "Y" in his name, an "ae" in his name, and given your signature file, an apostrophe as well.

How creative.
[/RANT]

The name of the bladesinger isn't Kae'Yoss. When I said "I'm a bladesinger" I actually meant "I play a character that is a bladesinger".
His name's Pharaun (OK, it's out of the FRCS, and it's even a drow name, but I just couldn't think of a decent name at that day, end the elven names didn't sound good to me. And in his history, If I ever come around writing it, it also says that his father was drow)

Kae'Yoss is the name I use a couple of years now (after "chaos" was to mundane to me - I run into two or soguys with chaos in their name whenever I played TFC online - and I liked some "fantasy-like" spelling)

Actually . . . I've been looking to send a max-minning powergamer elven bladesinger against my (totally humanoid) party. KaeYoss -- if you could send me a copy of your character (base stats, feats, items, etc. etc.), I'd greatly appreciate it. Seriously.

can do. I wouldn't tell him min-maxed, though: the spells really beef up the bladesinger!

I rated Superior Expertise an '8' or '9'. At high, high levels, against creatures with huge bonuses to hit (like dragons), it may be the only way to survive.

On the other hand, if you're a Dragon, and you've got S.E., you can make yourself unhittable while dealing out damage. I disagree that Power Attack in those situations is necessarily superior.

Right. Those buggers tend to have real high AB!