podcast: 4th edition combat too long

[Felon]

When isn't watching people play D&D combat like watching paint dry?

I've seen plenty of RPG sessions that made me think "gee, I wish I was playing that". This session does not convey that.

I'll also grant that Noonan wasn't particularly riveting, but I don't think he was much better or worse than a lot of GMs I've seen.

This I agree with. It's not the DM's job to be all animated and entertaining while players sit back and watch. It's a cooperative experience, and the players just weren't invested in what was basically just a nondescript, generic combat without context.

Which, unfortunately, if following the podcasts and web articles is any indication, seems to be pretty typical of what the staffers consider playtesting D&D.

As for the players making poor choices, I don't really agree. That is, I don't think they were necessarily playing below the level of most people out there. That Sara Girard (a marketing person) could basically keep up with a table that included some developers and the extensively-prepped Jennifer Clarke Wilkes says something about the player-friendliness of 4e, IMO.

They exercised zero grasp of tactics at the individual or group level. If zero grasp of tactics is the benchmark that most players hit, then they were doing fine. The defenders didn't mark their foes or take the brunt of attacks--the fighter actually hadn't taken any damage all that time the other characters were getting mauled. The rogue was so overeager to get in an alpha strike that he hung himself out to dry. Just about everybody spent their action points just because they didn't like missing with their first attack.

In general, it didn't seem like the presence of developers counted for much. That's what was so disappointing.

 

[Dragonbait]

Umm.. Going back to the OP and not commenting on party roles, dice rolls, and DMing quality:

4E combat DOES have more rounds. 3E was, apparently, about 4 PCs vs. 1 monster in a single room and most often lasted for 3 to 4 rounds (something like 10 to 20 minutes, even up to 30 depending on the dice rolls and so on). 4E is about 5 PCs vs. 4 to 8 monsters in multiple rooms. 1st level 4E Combat lasts about as long as a group of 3E characters between levels 5 to 8, and two of them are spellcasters. HOWEVER, what I discovered is you will hear the following A LOT "It's my turn already?"

The length of real time for ONE round in 3E roughly equals the length of real time for THREE rounds in 4E.

This is assuming that everyone knows what their character can do. If everyone is behinds and elbows in gaming skill, then it might take for-ever.. Just like it did when people didn't know what they are doing in 3E.

 

[Olorin]

I, however, am confused by some rounds where the players seem to be taking more actions than was allowed, such as the warlock when upon missing her attack, she rolled again, hit, went on to roll another attack - which I understand was the secondary attack - on another rakshasa I think.

If this is the round I'm thinking of, she had done Tendrils of Thuban the previous round, which creates a zone that can be sustained. So she sustained the zone with her minor and rolled that attack, then she did Coldfire Vortex as her standard, which has the secondary attack.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I think that people may be overlooking the intimidating factor of having a camera and sound recording equipment in the room. I've been on both sides of the lens, and it can substantially change people's behaviour. It sometimes take a lot of exposure to the recording equipment to get people to behave as they would without the equipment.

In the case of the PVP/PA podcast, the participants (with the exception of Perkins, I suspect) are very much used to performing activities while under the scrutiny of a microphone and there is not, to my knowledge, a camera present. (Which I'm happy with, since I think that the medium of sound recording alone is better for the participants involved and for their particular activity, though some visual aids may have helped. I think the PVP/PA podcasts evoke something in the listener that would not be evoked in a viewer.)

 

[sirus]

hey guys! this is my first post on the forum, but I've been an avid reader of enworld for about...5 years?


I stopped playing d20 and dungeons and dragons a couple of years ago, due to it not living up to my groups demands. It was simply not fun anymore.
That being said I was pretty curious when 4th edition was announced. would wotc be able to make af fun, simple system to support epic adventures in a fantastic world?
My answer to that turned out to be...yes and no!

The "woah, my character can do cool stuff" is both a blessing and a curse. It's cool because every character shimmers with awesomeness, but crappy because of all the mechanics involved, thus making combat somewhat long and boring. Hell, we had encounters in 3rd edition that took over 5 hours to resolve!

Well, on to commenting on the video itself.

First of all; If these guys represent the general playtesters involved in the design of 4th ed. I must shudder!
could they at least PRETEND to have just a tiny bit of fun? (the comment about the "hot" girl was really spot on!)
Wow, everyone just starred into their sheets, rolling...not caring at all while the "dungeon master" (god I hate that term!) frantically tried to stir SOME enthusiasm.
It seems like they just put a couple of random joes into a room. It must have been that or a staff party turning terribly ackward the night before.

What on earth is the point in this video podcast?
are they trying to win new players over with this, or making old player wanna switch? It fails in either case, and shows that D&D has turned into a miniatures game. Why only showcase combat? why not also give us just a GLIMPSE of roleplaying. I don't suspect many people who are interested in roleplaying would want to try it out, after they've seen this...well, not D&D

boring, boring, boring.

 

[Felon]

4E combat DOES have more rounds. 3E was, apparently, about 4 PCs vs. 1 monster in a single room and most often lasted for 3 to 4 rounds (something like 10 to 20 minutes, even up to 30 depending on the dice rolls and so on). 4E is about 5 PCs vs. 4 to 8 monsters in multiple rooms. 1st level 4E Combat lasts about as long as a group of 3E characters between levels 5 to 8, and two of them are spellcasters. HOWEVER, what I discovered is you will hear the following A LOT "It's my turn already?"

The length of real time for ONE round in 3E roughly equals the length of real time for THREE rounds in 4E.

Meh. I can't say I see what the benefit is of individual rounds going faster if it takes far more effort to resolve the encounter. IMHO, combats are only "too long" if they're not entertaining. As long as there's energy and excitement, I'm content for a fight to keep going.

 

[buzz]

First of all; If these guys represent the general playtesters involved in the design of 4th ed. I must shudder!

They're not playtesters. The video clearly explains who they are. I don't know why people keep bringing this up.

 

[buzz]

I've seen plenty of RPG sessions that made me think "gee, I wish I was playing that". This session does not convey that.

My experience, especially with games like D&D, is that watching as a non-participant is generally pretty boring. There are exceptions, of course.

I think Kwalish Kid makes a good point about w/r/t the Penny Arcade/PvP podcast. That's fun to listen to largely because the players are people who earn their living doing comedy, essentially. They are definitely not making sound tactical decisions, and Perkins is positively deadpan compared to Noonan.

Here, though, we have people who, with the exception of Girard, don't have dealing with people, or coming up with snappy one-liners, as a regular part of their job. Add a camera and the expectation that they will be on display for the public, and I can understand these people being reserved.

I maintain that, were you playing in the game, you'd find the session pretty typical. From the outside, it seems boring because D&D is flat-out pretty boring to watch from the outside.

 

[Harr]

I think you have to take into account the situation... a bunch of employees thrown together and told to pretend to be friends and have fun in front of the camera. On top of that, mixing R&D people with Sales & Marketing people. Never a good idea that I've seen. And at least one person in there was clearly forced to be there to fill out the group. I'd be shocked if it didn't flop.

Next time these guys should just ask a group of players & DM who already play and have fun together off-camera to be the podcast group. Who cares if they're all bad-looking or nerdy or all guys? The group interaction is what it's all about and this group just didn't bring it.

Meh. I can't say I see what the benefit is of individual rounds going faster if it takes far more effort to resolve the encounter. IMHO, combats are only "too long" if they're not entertaining. As long as there's energy and excitement, I'm content for a fight to keep going.

So you can't see how individual rounds going faster would lead to more energy and excitement at the table? Pretty clear from where I'm standing.

 

[ravenight]

Meh. I can't say I see what the benefit is of individual rounds going faster if it takes far more effort to resolve the encounter. IMHO, combats are only "too long" if they're not entertaining. As long as there's energy and excitement, I'm content for a fight to keep going.

The benefit of faster rounds is that people get to do something new more often, which means they get to interact more, instead of having some long series of self-interacting actions. Even if you take the same number of actions, spreading them over twice as many chunks interspersed with enemy and ally actions is more interesting and interactive.

I also wanted to point out that I'm not blaming the players themselves in my previous post - I doubt I would have done better, and it's clear that they were just kind of thrown together with whatever character they chose, with no direction at all, just "let's roll up paragon dudes and have a big battle!" It is much more like a behind-the-scenes video than something that really serves as a tutorial or an ad. I'm glad they did, because I found it interesting, but I wish they'd spent more effort on directing it so that it was really entertaining and showed the game off well.