podcast: 4th edition combat too long

[Kishin]

Not to mention the guy running it might as well be describing a 10x10 room with an orc in it.

You were looking for Roleplaying in a combat demonstration done for a podcast under a time crunch?

It's pretty obvious that combat ran more than six rounds. There's editting gaps.

But yeah, crappy dice luck kinda took the wind out of that one's sails.
You do learn that things that can interpose other monsters are going to be a huge PITA to deal with.

 

[Palladion]

(Normally I would not post a rant, but with the for and against for 4th edition flying around, leaving this unspoken is bad. Forgive the somewhat harsh tone for this post, but something about the podcast irked me greatly.)

I want to point out some really fundamental shortfalls in the video podcast combat. The paladin did not challenge/mark (PHB 91) (minor action to do so, which she had plenty of). The warlock forgot to curse (again, minor action) enemies until about the third round of combat, I believe. The fighter did not enter melee until later in the combat, nor did he challenge/mark (not even an action, you just have to remember it) when he used his wizard powers. The rogue, while having a good first round, was neither backed up by his party nor did he use his mobility once he was in trouble (this was mostly bad luck on his part).

(Next, I apologize, but again, going to be harsh here. A bit of a rant.)

These people are gamers, game designers, playtesters, and they freaking work for Wizards! The part that scares me the most is "playtesters". If these are the people who tested 4th edition, it makes me want to cry.

These people missed fundamental abilities of their classes and their class roles. Two defenders who did not defend (go ahead and swing away like it was 3e), a warlock (striker) who tried very hard to be a controller, a fighter who did not enter into melee (see about 5:12 in the podcast to hear him talk about wizard powers in melee and to supplement the role he is playing). Poor wizard was the only one close to doing his role, but he could not roll above 8 to save the rogue's life.

These are not novice players who are learning the game, these are game designers! I would be ashamed to show my face if I played that badly.

Yes, I said it, badly.

The video was a horrible showcase of 4th edition combat. While bore into brain is amusing, the flawed approach the players took to combat (individualism instead of team play) might just ruin any fence sitters out there. Oh, the rogue did not inform his own party of his hit point status either, not that he was bloodied or about to die. What was he waiting for? That his party would feel guilty for letting him die? Not very gamerly attitude... and he would still be dead (or a thrall)!

(I apologize for the "personal attack" nature of this post. While not completely constructive, I wanted to point out the faults.)

For those still deciding about 4th edition, I want to say that the game should be played more like "tell me about your party" rather than "tell me about your character". Showboating will probably get everyone killed, cooperation will get you around the fun encounters your DM designs.

(I hope no one flames me too bad for this, very sorry again. This was all strong opinion, but when I saw the combat, I was shaking my head in shame.)

Oh yeah, when played properly, 4th edition combat rounds are faster and more mobile than previous editions. They can swing back and forth, so people have to keep their heads in the game. Combat overall is about the same length of time, but no one is left sitting around being bored (too much).

 

[Vael]

Wow, the dice gods must have been really angry with the PCs, didn't one of them roll like three straight natural 1s? The two PCs after the monsters barely managed any hits, which is why it ended in a PC rout.

Overall, an interesting experiment. General comments ... have everyone miked, I could only really hear Dave, the women were especially hard to understand. Second ... no handheld with the camera, I hated the shaking.

 

[ravenight]

They rolled badly, but as Palladion says, they really played poorly - very few attempts to help each other out, almost no coordinated tactics. You can tell their attitude was straight 3e/powergamer by the fact that everyone blew their action point in the first round. Using action points in the first round is really only a good idea if you are going to pull off some combo that eliminates an opponent or two. You don't just use it to re-roll a missed attack.

Seriously, why in the world is the rogue charging the mindflayer right out the gate? Even if his entire purpose there was to knock him unconscious, he should have encouraged the others (and they should have known) to work with him and pile on the Mindflayer at that point, or he shouldn't have done it. If they couldn't get there, then that is all the more reason not to charge in and blow the action point right away.

Ignore the rolls and simply focus on the actions the party takes in the first round or two and it doesn't even seem like they are playing the right game. I didn't see one instance of someone moving to flanking position, or even paying attention to the position of another PC.

Another thing that is a shame is that there are several poorly adjudicated or forgotten rules. I think that the OAs for the minotaur were not handled correctly (I'm pretty sure I saw the minotaur use one against the paladin twice in the same turn, and I also thought the warlock hit one of the creatures with a power that made it take OAs against its allies and yet I don't remember any of those occuring). Also, the paladin power "pray for more" is used to make the DM reroll at one point, which isn't how it works. They did put the text up, but it would have been better if they had also pointed out that Dave made a mistake in allowing that use of it.

Honestly, the whole thing might make for a really great 4e ad if they did another video of some people who know what they are doing critiquing the plays, explaining what happened, what should have happened rules-wise if something was forgotten or misplayed, and what should have been done, or might have been a better idea rules-wise.

I also find it somewhat odd that after all the talk about roles and the importance of having a party that covers each one, there wasn't any commentary about the fact that the group had no leader.

Anyway, I enjoyed watching it, and I think its intent was as much to show some people having fun with the system and kind of get others talking about it as to actually sell the system. That said, it doesn't do a good job of showing what combat can be like.

 

[Liebot]

I agree with you Palladion, very shoddy play.

 

[Kishin]

Another thing that is a shame is that there are several poorly adjudicated or forgotten rules. I think that the OAs for the minotaur were not handled correctly (I'm pretty sure I saw the minotaur use one against the paladin twice in the same turn, and I also thought the warlock hit one of the creatures with a power that made it take OAs against its allies and yet I don't remember any of those occuring). Also, the paladin power "pray for more" is used to make the DM reroll at one point, which isn't how it works. They did put the text up, but it would have been better if they had also pointed out that Dave made a mistake in allowing that use of it.

Well, there were definite editing gaps that I saw, so its possible we missed some of them. Pray for More was completely wrong though, definitely.

A lot of the good tactical plays seemed to be ruined by bad dicework. The Wizard's Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, just about anything the Fighter did...

Also, can we get a timeframe on this podcast? I assume its several months old, as Dave states none of the developers have the 4E hardcovers, yet there were a few posts from Mearls and others on their blogs a few weeks back mentioning finally having them. Is it possible things were changed between then and now?

And come on, there was a Mind Flayer and no Mind Blast used? That's like an action movie with no vehicle chases.

 

[Drakhar]

Another interesting thing, is just when exactly was this podcast done, because like they said before actually starting the combat, not a single person at that table had access to a PHB, they were all using their three ring binders. Aside from the really really really bad rolls, I agree that many of the characters weren't played to their fullest. A big thing when the Mind flayer grabbed the Rogue, both the Paladin and the fighter... didn't go to Defend him. At all. The paladin should have been in the monsters face, marking it and beating on it every time it tried to eat the rogues brain, or the Fighter should have been there. Either way the defenders were doing a pretty poor job of defending.

 

[unan oranis]

To those who are aghast at the supposed poor tactics implemented by the party...

Have you considered they did that on purpose?

The old demo screen on the arcade machine gambit... you watch the computer playing ms.pacman and think "Thats horrible! I could do WAY better than *that*!"

Then you put your quarter in.

 

[Baumi]

I really liked it and I think that this is the kind of format that would be awesome for teaching new Players/GM's how to play. The Penny-Arcade Podcast would also have been greatly enhanced with Video...

I don't think that the tactics where to bad, but since they didn't know each other well they had individual-tactics (power-combos) instead of team-tactics, but they are hardly to blame in such a one-shot environment. The main Problem for the party was the POOR Dierolling in their side and the GOOD Rolls on the GM Side.

By the way, the Mindflayer rocked and so did the very enthusiastic GM

 

[Old Gumphrey]

This podcast is junk. Those people don't even know what's going on half the time, they're not even paying attention to the game. Probably because the DM is so God awful. /rant

On D&D game day I played with 5 total strangers and we finished 1 noncombat encounter and 3 combat encounters in less than 3 hours. Combat in 4e is lightning fast compared to 3e, if you pay a lick of attention. I have one of those "hem-and-haw" players that takes upwards of 5 minutes to decide between moving or attacking and it's still easily twice as fast as 3e combat.

Seriously, this podcast is JUNK.