D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Oofta]

Except the point-buy vs. rolling discussion is germaine to all editions, not just 5e; and even though it's in a 5e-based forum doesn't mean all of us will automatically look at it from a 5e-only perspective. I sure don't.

And [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] is right in one thing: the 3d6 bell curve, for all its flaws ( [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is spot on when he points out that 3d6 gives way too many extreme results to base a general population on) was the stated default for general population creation in 1e and, as it has not really been replaced or amended since, remains the default...well...by default.

The forum is literally named "D&D 5th Edition News, Rules". There is no reference to using 3d6 for ability scores for NPCs in this edition, therefore it is no more germane to this edition than the rules for ability score generation in GURPS.

 

[Maxperson]

Nowhere does it state nor imply that you roll for ability scores for NPCs. If you really want to you can generate ability scores for unique NPCs using the same method you use for generating characters. In my campaign that would mean I would use point buy.

This is partially incorrect. Rolling is implied. Rolling is the default for stats, so that's the default method of stat generation for NPCs. You'd have to engage the optional rules for point buys and/or arrays to alter that. I agree that the method for NPC stat generation should be the same as for the PCs, though.

I can't think of anything else to add.

You keep saying that, yet you also keep adding stuff.

 

[Maxperson]

How is "3d6 is used for the general population" not applying to all NPC's? Are NPC's not the general population?

You had trouble with this before in the encounters altering world creation thread. Just because 3d6 is the range for the general population, does not mean that you actually have to roll the numbers. The range informs the DM of what stats are appropriate and he can roll, choose them, or whatever. No need to roll all stats for all NPCs in order for 3d6 to model the general population.

Oh, and I agree that NPC's, particularly "named" NPC's who are expected to have more significant interactions with the PC's, such as henchmen, are more likely to be given stats. The fact of the matter though is that the overwhelming majority of NPC's in those modules DON'T have stats and are certainly not generated on a 3d6 model.

They are generated on the 3d6 model IF they need stats. NPCs without stats are not expected to be in a situation where stats are needed. It would be a waste of time to roll stats for them.

 

[Hussar]

So, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], which is it?

Rolling is implied. Rolling is the default for stats, so that's the default method of stat generation for NPCs. You'd have to engage the optional rules for point buys and/or arrays to alter that.

Just because 3d6 is the range for the general population, does not mean that you actually have to roll the numbers. The range informs the DM of what stats are appropriate and he can roll, choose them, or whatever. No need to roll all stats for all NPCs in order for 3d6 to model the general population.

So, is rolling needed or not? Is it the default or not?

 

[Wulffolk]

Alignment audit on [MENTION=6871450]Wulffolk[/MENTION] - - - this action brings you one step closer to Evil.

Lan-"and I ain't no angel myself"-efan

That assumes that I am not already Eeevillll.
At least one of my personalities would disagree with you, and another would Smite you for such a baseless impugning of my moral character.

 

[Maxperson]

So,
So, is rolling needed? Is it the default?

No and yes.

Edit: I'm changing your words in the quote to make my response make more sense. Hope you don't mind.

 

[Hussar]

How can something be the default but also not needed? That's like saying my car runs on gasoline, but, it will still run if I don't put gasoline in it. Sorry, if something is not needed, then it cannot be the default.

But, that being said, I do agree with you on one thing [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. You view D&D mechanics as a base for world building. I do not. Mostly, as this thread shows, because if you actually use the mechanics for world building, the world makes zero sense and you have to ignore swaths of the mechanics in order to do it. To me, D&D mechanics apply to the players, full stop. If the players aren't interacting with it, the mechanics don't exist. The mechanics are there to help me adjudicate player interactions and nothing more.

I do agree with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s point though about the stats in AD&D filling the bell curve in a much more believable way. For example, there is virtually no difference between a 7-14 for most stats. Depends on the stats actually. 7 Str is a -1 to hit, but a 7 Con has no modifier. Meaning that a "normal" human basically fills a giant bubble on the bell with only the very extremes actually having any real effect. It does make the 3-18 bell work rather better as a model than in later era D&D where mods start at 8 or 12.

OTOH, the idea that normal humans use a 3d6 model isn't actually mentioned anywhere in 5e. 3d6 stat generation simply doesn't exist. [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], are you claiming that normal humans use 4d6k1? Because that's going to really, really skew the bell. That means that normal humans should have about 14 (after racial adjustment) as their base stat.

 

[Lanefan]

How can something be the default but also not needed? That's like saying my car runs on gasoline, but, it will still run if I don't put gasoline in it. Sorry, if something is not needed, then it cannot be the default.

A better analogy is that the car runs on gasoline, thus gasoline is needed if it's going to run; but if the car is sitting in the garage and not running it still has an engine in it that has gasoline as its default fuel. It just doesn't happen to be using any right now.

Same for offscreen mechanics of all kinds. The game runs on mechanics, thus mechanics are needed if it's going to run; but all the things happening offscreen that the players don't see are still based on the same default mechanics. They just don't happen to be played through by anyone as in effect they can be left to run themselves until-unless there's a reason to pay closer attention to them.

The forum is literally named "D&D 5th Edition News, Rules". There is no reference to using 3d6 for ability scores for NPCs in this edition, therefore it is no more germane to this edition than the rules for ability score generation in GURPS.

5e-specific forum or not, I look at many of these discussions - not just this one - as being applicable to all editions; mostly because many of them are. Problem is, there's either the 5e forum or the past-editions forum but no all-editions D&D forum; or the general RPG forum which includes all systems and can't be isolated to just D&D. Thus an all-editions-D&D thread like this really doesn't have a good home, and putting it in the 5e forum at least ensures it'll get some attention as that's where all the traffic seems to be these days.

Lanefan

 

[Maxperson]

How can something be the default but also not needed? That's like saying my car runs on gasoline, but, it will still run if I don't put gasoline in it. Sorry, if something is not needed, then it cannot be the default.

Eh, no. Here's an accurate analogy. It's like saying that the default car comes with a radio, but that you don't actually need a radio if you don't want one. Gas is needed if the car runs on one. That was a horrible analogy man.

But, that being said, I do agree with you on one thing [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. You view D&D mechanics as a base for world building. I do not. Mostly, as this thread shows, because if you actually use the mechanics for world building, the world makes zero sense and you have to ignore swaths of the mechanics in order to do it. To me, D&D mechanics apply to the players, full stop. If the players aren't interacting with it, the mechanics don't exist. The mechanics are there to help me adjudicate player interactions and nothing more.

Except that I've never said that the mechanics are the base for world building. I have said that mechanics CAN inform world building. That's very different from saying that they are the base of world building.

OTOH, the idea that normal humans use a 3d6 model isn't actually mentioned anywhere in 5e. 3d6 stat generation simply doesn't exist. [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], are you claiming that normal humans use 4d6k1? Because that's going to really, really skew the bell. That means that normal humans should have about 14 (after racial adjustment) as their base stat.

The way it reads, they would use 4d6 drop the lowest, yes. However, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] mentioned, the 10 average the commoner gets would be the average of 3d6, so 5e is inconsistent in this regard.

 

[TwoSix]

How can something be the default but also not needed? That's like saying my car runs on gasoline, but, it will still run if I don't put gasoline in it. Sorry, if something is not needed, then it cannot be the default.

Wait, what? Having a "default" strongly implies optionality. You don't have a default unless there are other options to select. And if other options can be selected, the default can't be necessary.

Like my internet browser has a default page it goes to when a new tab is opened, but going to another page doesn't break my browser. Or combo meal #3 is my default choice when I go to a certain restaurant, but if it goes off the menu, that doesn't mean the restaurant is broken,

Granted, semantic discussions around here are normally pointless and stupid, but this particular case is a real headscratcher.