D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Oofta

Legend
Wait, what? Having a "default" strongly implies optionality. You don't have a default unless there are other options to select. And if other options can be selected, the default can't be necessary.

Like my internet browser has a default page it goes to when a new tab is opened, but going to another page doesn't break my browser. Or combo meal #3 is my default choice when I go to a certain restaurant, but if it goes off the menu, that doesn't mean the restaurant is broken,

Granted, semantic discussions around here are normally pointless and stupid, but this particular case is a real headscratcher.

I have no clue why this discussion continues. I admit I tend to respond to questions/responses directed at me, which is probably a bad idea. I also get annoyed with people making false statements.

But seriously? We're arguing about whether or not a guideline last suggested decades ago, long before many (if not most) of the players of the game were born is relevant?
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I have no clue why this discussion continues. I admit I tend to respond to questions/responses directed at me, which is probably a bad idea. I also get annoyed with people making false statements.

But seriously? We're arguing about whether or not a guideline last suggested decades ago, long before many (if not most) of the players of the game were born is relevant?
Yep. Far too many arguments, in general, about what game should be and what the rules actually are. It doesn't matter what the rules actually are. It matters how your interpretation impacts your game. This thread was much more interesting when people were discussing various methods they used, and the pros and cons of each.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
I don't think rolling a few 6 sided dice is a good method for modeling the ability scores of the general population nor is such a method stated as the default in 5E.

If you were to actually go to the trouble of generating the stats of every single NPC inhabitant of, say, a city (which is exactly what they did in The City State of the Invincible Overlord) then you'd get a realistic population with no stat limited by any other stat, some people being blessed with above average abilities across the board and other cursed with low abilities, reflecting that actual populations have this kind of variance.

After all, it would be a ridiculously unrealistic world where every single person had exactly the same Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. It would be just as absurd to have an entire population of tens of thousands of people whose ability scores added up to 27 points, implying that every person is equally blessed/cursed.

Yet if you were to attempt to generate the same population as above, but using point-buy instead of rolling, you get that totally unrealistic population. Like The Stepford Wives gone global!

To the point of 'is 3d6 the default/is it required'? Yes, the default assumption is that the population is such that their abilities were randomly generated on 3d6 in order. That is the background against which any ability score is judged as 'high' or 'low' or whatever. It gives context to, say, Wis 16. Is Wis 16 good or bad? Compare it the bell curve to find out.

However, it is not 'required' in the sense that the role-playing police are not going to arrest you if you use any other method to generate the ability scores of any particular NPC!

You can simply choose the scores that seem right for the needs of the scenario. You can use a pre-gen, like the one's that WotC have thoughtfully provided in the back of the MM. You can use an array, or point-buy, of 4d6k3, or even 3d6 in order. In fact, you don't even need to actually generate an NPC's ability scores at all if those ability scores are not going to be relevant to the game at that point. This does not mean that such NPCs don't HAVE ability scores! It just means that you have no interest in what they are at this point.

But these other methods are simply helpful DM shortcuts so that the DM doesn't have to roll up every single NPC in the universe before he starts play! The assumption is that every single NPC has been 'rolled up', and on 3d6 in order. The same is true for PCs; we use other methods not because they are a different species but in order to get generally better than average scores to reflect heroic characters.

'If they haven't changed something, then it remains the same'. This is just as true for editions of D&D as it is for laws of the land. If they bring in a new law, it doesn't mean that previous laws stop applying! They continue to operate as they always did, unless the new law specifically says that certain other laws no longer apply.

Whether or not you can get an average of 10.5 using 1d20 or any other method than 3d6 is not the issue. The issue is that 3d6 was the stated default that models the population, and it has not been replaced!

In order to disprove that, you would need to find 5E text which says, 'this is how the population is generated'. If you did, then that would replace the ongoing 3d6 in order that has never been replaced.

And no, 'not being bothered to roll them all' was never a replacement for that 3d6 bell curve assumption for the general population; it was always just a time-saver for the DM. The 5E text which says that you don't need to roll ability scores for NPCs is not a change in the 3d6 assumption, it is a statement which says you don't need to actually 'use 3d6 in order otherwise you are breaking the rules'. It doesn't change the 3d6 bell curve assumption.

If it hasn't changed, then it stays the same.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
So, is rolling needed or not? Is it the default or not?
Rolling is not needed, it is an underlying model, and an historical context. Rolling (4d6) is the default to create PCs, with standard array and point-buy as alternatives. The commoner, the entry presumably most representative of the general population, is not consistent with any of those PC-creation methods, it is consistent with 3d6.

If you were to actually go to the trouble of generating the stats of every single NPC inhabitant of, say, a city then you'd get a realistic population with no stat limited by any other stat, some people being blessed with above average abilities across the board and other cursed with low abilities, reflecting that actual populations have this kind of variance.
Realistically, human abilities, when arbitrarily sorted into only 6 boxes like D&D does, aren't independent random variables. Some things, like strength & overall health are strongly influenced by the environment, and/or are linked to eachother. An athlete is likely to have higher scores in all three physical stats, in large part due to intentional training, for instance.

After all, it would be a ridiculously unrealistic world where every single person had exactly the same Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha.
The degree of unrealism would be out there, but if that hypothetical single set of stats were very near the average, it might be less unrealistic than the comparatively tail-heavy 3d6 distribution. :shrug:

It would be just as absurd to have an entire population of tens of thousands of people whose ability scores added up to 27 points, implying that every person is equally blessed/cursed.
It would be a good deal less absurd, since at least they wouldn't all be identical.

Yet if you were to attempt to generate the same population as above, but using point-buy instead of rolling, you get that totally unrealistic population. Like The Stepford Wives gone global!
Similar to rolling 4d6 for the whole population, yes, you'd have a world that was, on average, well above average. 3d6 would work better, though it'd give you too much on the very high & low ends. But, you could have an 'mundane array' of 10,10,10,11,11,11 (which'd have the opposite problem, /no/ high or low end!), or a 15-point buy (the point cost of that very average array) with more variation depending on exactly how you used it.

You could get much closer to realistic (or what you considered realistic or even just desirable for the world you had in mind) by not using any PC-generation method (nor variation thereof) uniformly through the population, at all.

To the point of 'is 3d6 the default/is it required'? Yes, the default assumption is that the population is such that their abilities were randomly generated on 3d6 in order.
It's neither default, nor an assumption in 5e - it was way back in 1e, and it hasn't been changed or dismissed, it's merely been ignored since then. There's a whole morass of tribal knowledge, unquestioned traditions, and unstated assumptions underlying D&D, like a castle built on a swamp, the stone parapets are no indication of the foundation.

'If they haven't changed something, then it remains the same'
That's how it seems to me. The 1e DMG went further than any other D&D book before or since in spelling out all sorts of bizarre minutia, philosophies, and rationalizations for D&D, and most of that strangeness hasn't been explicitly 'changed,' just quietly ignored...



But seriously? We're arguing about whether or not a guideline last suggested decades ago, long before many (if not most) of the players of the game were born is relevant?
It's hard to fathom, but yes. Obviously, D&D is a game (and in particular, ENWorld a community) where the past is extremely relevant.
 
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Hussar

Legend
On the point about 4d6 being the default. Nope, it's not. That's spelled out in the 5e PHB. You CAN die roll OR you can take default array FOR PC's. Point buy is the variant and is called out specifically as such.

The FIRST SECTION on Designing NPC's states:

DMG p 89 said:
An NPC doesn't need combat statistics unless it poses a threat...

Abilities: You don't need to roll abilities scores for the NPC...

IOW, NPC'S DON'T HAVE STATS!!!!
 

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