D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[stevelabny]

Why? Why does an NPC need a full mechanical class? Why does a blacksmith, to use the example, need a full stat block? What does this add to the game?

The exact same thing that the ogre having a full stat block adds to the game. Possibly even more, since in a normal campaign, the friendly blacksmith has a much better survival chance than the evil ogre.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Frankly, I usually look at a 1st level PC as being below average, but with potential. No poll option for that one, though. I assume that NPCs are much more competent than the DMG would suggest. A 1st level PC is 18 years old (or the nonhuman equivalent) and has little to no meaningful experience. That should result in a really statistically unimpressive character. Then again PCs typically have better ability scores and better class abilities than the majority of NPCs, so there's a lot of potential there.

 

[Cadence]

Very, very few of the elements of level actually apply to regular people in any meaningful fashion. As a "world building" mechanic, levels leave a lot to be desired.

HP and Thaco wouldn't apply... but things like skills and spell-use could. If the only choice is the current 3.5/Pathfinder NPC classes then I agree they leave a huge amount to be desired and I'm inclined to just skip them. An easy fix would be to simply allow for "non-adventuring levels" that, for example, grant everything except to hit bonuses, hit points, and good concentration rolls for spell casters. This would give an easy mechanic for statting up that cleric who spent their whole life in the temple (level 2 never adventured cleric, mostly healing spells, with a few divinations, 8hp) or the wizard who went on one-adventure and retired to his tower and became a famous researcher (level 9 wizard, two levels adventuring, necromancy and fire spells, 10hp). The level mechanic immediately gives the relative spell power and skill levels. For the more mundane craftsmen or the like the level would also give a rough idea of the skill level (level 3 blacksmith, militia training, tall and large, has intimidate, 9hp). Of course you could just use the skill points, but the level has a nice comfortable feel.

How did they level? They aren't adventurers, they trained or worked at things that forced them to meaningfully improve and this is the level they ended up at. So, instead of doing mental gymnastics to justify XP, just use target demographics and what seems reasonable. (If the commoner just kept doing the same thing over the years then there is no reason he would ever level. If the blacksmith had no drive, he'd never advance either in spite of the countless hours he put in making nails.)

Why no extra HP or to hit bonuses? Extra HP beyond your initial size and health are what you get from adventuring (being the action hero as opposed to the extra). To hit bonuses come from actually being exposed to real combat. (Being good at the firing range might doesn't mean squat when you're wetting yourself because the "target" is shooting arrows at you for a change.)

So... I don't think I've ever fully statted up a "mundane NPC" (at least not in recent memory) and I'm not a fan of the 3.5/PF NPC classes. But I think having a decent NPC class could personally help me with my world building when I get in one of those moods where I worry about a lack of pseudo-internal consistancy (how does a town constable compare to a 1st level fighter or thief in ability; if the town turns out to confront the kobold hoard, how ugly would it be; are all my town guards tougher now just because the party is higher level?). Not so that I can give everyone full stat blocks, but so I can have a nice short-hand, like I used in the first paragraph paragraph, that does the job for me most of the time. And, in those rare cases where I might need to, I could do a full statting pretty quickly.

[This does make me try to recall the classic early adventurers... did all of the NPCs in things like B2 have full stat blocks?]

 

[Hussar]

The exact same thing that the ogre having a full stat block adds to the game. Possibly even more, since in a normal campaign, the friendly blacksmith has a much better survival chance than the evil ogre.

How often are you going to need the friendly blacksmith's BAB? His damage rolls? His Dex score? Very, very little. OTOH, you are very much likely to need that information for an ogre.

[This does make me try to recall the classic early adventurers... did all of the NPCs in things like B2 have full stat blocks?]

Virtually none. Typically only a hit point number and that's about it. Other than "named" NPC's like the evil priest, where you could reasonably expect to need combat stats. However, something to remember back then is that a stat block only contained combat stats - no skills or feats since there weren't rules for that.

 

[Grydan]

2. Its a good, fair way to control NPC's and available resources. Why doesnt this small village have a blacksmith that can forge mithril? Well because thats a higher DC then the small town level 2 blacksmith can master.

Honestly? If the question of whether or not the blacksmith in this small village can forge impossibilium ever becomes in the slightest bit relevant in a campaign I'm running, chances are that the answer is "Why yes, yes he can".

Why? Because the players probably don't need to know that information unless they have a need for someone who has that skill, whether directly (they need it themselves) or indirectly (in order to fulfill some other obligation, they must find such a person for someone else). Saying "yes", in most cases, is going to give me a better hook to hang interesting stories on.

If I say "no", then the players just travel on to the nearest place where the answer will be "yes". Unless there's something particularly interesting in that place, or on the way to that place, we're just marking time.

If I say "yes", then it raises interesting questions, like: Why is such a master craftsman stuck working in the middle of Nowheresville? Perhaps the party needs to know the answer before they can talk the blacksmith into performing the task at hand.

In the case that the players don't currently need to know whether or not the local blacksmith can work with unobtanium, then I as the DM don't really need to worry about it either. Knowing potentially irrelevant details of every last NPC I place in the world is going to take up far more time and brainspace than I'm willing to devote to it.

 

[timASW]

Why? Why does an NPC need a full mechanical class? Why does a blacksmith, to use the example, need a full stat block? What does this add to the game?

Verisimilitude.

What does it take away from your game that makes you strongly opposed to it?

 

[timASW]

Honestly? If the question of whether or not the blacksmith in this small village can forge impossibilium ever becomes in the slightest bit relevant in a campaign I'm running, chances are that the answer is "Why yes, yes he can".

Why? Because the players probably don't need to know that information unless they have a need for someone who has that skill, whether directly (they need it themselves) or indirectly (in order to fulfill some other obligation, they must find such a person for someone else). Saying "yes", in most cases, is going to give me a better hook to hang interesting stories on.

If I say "no", then the players just travel on to the nearest place where the answer will be "yes". Unless there's something particularly interesting in that place, or on the way to that place, we're just marking time.

If I say "yes", then it raises interesting questions, like: Why is such a master craftsman stuck working in the middle of Nowheresville? Perhaps the party needs to know the answer before they can talk the blacksmith into performing the task at hand.

In the case that the players don't currently need to know whether or not the local blacksmith can work with unobtanium, then I as the DM don't really need to worry about it either. Knowing potentially irrelevant details of every last NPC I place in the world is going to take up far more time and brainspace than I'm willing to devote to it.

I'm curious, just how much brainspace exactly does it take to write down "blacksmith level 3, 14 hp, craft farm implements 6 ranks, craft weapons 3 ranks. " ???

I dont feel like I've lost any capacity in my memory banks for having gone through that incredibly laborious task, but perhaps it simply took so much that I've lost some of the ability to realize just how damaged and overfull my brain is now?

So for curiosity, how much of your brainspace would writing down that sentence actually take? Inquiring minds want to know why this task is so incredibly challenging.

 

[JasonZZ]

Verisimilitude.

What does it take away from your game that makes you strongly opposed to it?

Time spent creating background and story hooks, rather than generating NPCs. It's a lot quicker and cleaner to write "village blacksmith, mediocre skill" than go through the motions of generating a level 1 or two "expert" NPC, and the long-winded version is almost never worth the effort--the only time I might consider it is if the NPC in question is central to the current storyline.

 

[Obryn]

Verisimilitude.

What does it take away from your game that makes you strongly opposed to it?

(1) Time sinks and unnecessary tasks spent making NPCs more detailed than they need to be.
(2) Illogical NPC classes in the game-world which lead inevitably to butt-kicking turnip farmers because of the idiosyncracies of levels. I can't see how this isn't a versimilitude problem while an absence of NPC classes is.
(3) It throws class/level into every discussion of beings in the gameworld when it's a very clumsy attempt at obsessively categorizing the universe. Square pegs, round holes.
(4) Extraneous math which uses a process as a screen. It's fake versimilitude - you're following a process, so it feels like you're doing something, when in fact the math just obscures the final intent.

So for curiosity, how much of your brainspace would writing down that sentence actually take? Inquiring minds want to know why this task is so incredibly challenging.

You can rattle it off because you've had practice and experience in the system. As I mentioned, I ran 3.x for the better part of a decade, so I can, too. I know the way the math works. I am nevertheless not a fan.

I should note that, like any new DM, it was not so easy at first. As with anything else, it takes practice. I'm also not a fan of barriers to new DMs. New DMs shouldn't have to go through a long process to figure out how good the village blacksmith is at making horseshoes.

An extra and unnecessary task will remain extra and unnecessary no matter how many times you practice it.

-O

 

[slobo777]

I'm curious, just how much brainspace exactly does it take to write down "blacksmith level 3, 14 hp, craft farm implements 6 ranks, craft weapons 3 ranks. " ???

So for curiosity, how much of your brainspace would writing down that sentence actually take? Inquiring minds want to know why this task is so incredibly challenging.

It's not challenging, but it is generally wasted time. Even those stats are irrelevent 90% of the time if the PCs are just trying to buy supplies. Probably the NPC's name and perhaps something memorable about them in personality, mannerisms or appearance is the most usefully relevent thing.

Also, if you are the kind of DM who'd prefer to ad-lib in an appropriate character to the plot (as opposed to one built using the settlement-building rules*) when the players actually want a blacksmith for anything other than fixing chainmail links, then you probably don't want those actual stats anyway.

Nowadays I'd probably go with guesswork/ad-libbed stats for such an NPC first time that they would become relevent, and scribble them down in case they were needed again for consistency.

* Which is in no way wrong, just the stats aren't useful to certain (I'd say many) play styles.