D&D (2024) Poll: Will WOTC change the way cantrips scale for multiclass characters?

[James Gasik]

You can get fighting styles as an entry level feat, I believe weapon or armor proficiencies are too. You can not get extra attack or some other fifth level clsss feature as any level feat. The need to upgrade or a wand/start/etc for extra cantrips dice or a different cantrip as a character advances is no different from doing the same with melee or ranged weapons. That's the reason why I'm chose other and explained it in post 5... As a thing that would very much be an improvement for the health of the game.

That having been said, if you gain a Fighting Style, weapon, or armor from a Feat, it's probably already an upgrade to whatever your class is already doing, where getting a Cantrip from a race or Feat is not necessarily an upgrade, since it's something other classes are already doing (there are a few exceptions, like Spell Sniper).

Like, if I'm a Rogue and I get a Heavy Crossbow from a feat, that increases my damage- not by much, but it does. If my Rogue gets Archery Fighting Style, that's again, just a bonus. If my Rogue gets Fire Bolt, it's not doing him more good than anyone else who can use Fire Bolt. And if the Fire Bolt doesn't improve...then it's actively detrimental when he could deal much better damage with an actual ranged weapon already.

As for making casters acquire better implements to upgrade their Cantrips, this would assume that such things exist and could be acquired in all games, and that you'd get them at each new Tier, which is not an assumption 5e makes for anyone (you don't automatically get a +1 sword at level 5, for example).

Unless these implements are nonmagical, but I'm not sure what they would cost, since it's not like a Fighter has to trade out their starting weapon for a better nonmagical weapon to use their Extra Attack.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think the only way this happens is if EB becomes a class feature rather than a cantrip. If it's a class feature, it'll scale with class.

Also, just move AB to like L3 or L4, then it's such a big dip that you need to be kind of serious about it, but it doesn't have much in the way of balance implications, because it's still pretty early - hell - move it to L5, even. Without AB EB isn't particularly noteworthy.

Level 3 would make sense, as the 5.5e Warlock starts out with just one Invocation, doesn't get any at level 2, and then gets two more at level 3.

Between that and Blade Pact being an Invocation, you have enough of a barrier to entry that folks will think twice. I'd still say Paladin/Warlock and Sorcerer/Warlock will end up strong, whether you do only three levels of Warlock or lots of levels. But you have to pay a fairly high price of admission. I think Paladin 3/Warlock +N and Warlock 3/Sorcerer +N would probably be the superior options. The Sorcerer 18 subclass features are pretty lackluster for when you get them (though the class capstone is nice, it's not the end of the world to lose it), so the nice features of Warlock would help. Meanwhile, if you start Paladin 1 you get heavy armor, martial weapons, and shields, plus a bit of healing; level 2 saves you an invocation (since Divine Smite is nigh identical to Eldritch Smite), and access to all 1st-level Paladin spells; and level 3 gives you some decent oath options (Conquest, Glory, Vengeance, and Redemption; Devotion if your DM agrees that the Channel Divinity effect stacks with Blade Pact). You don't need Extra Attack because you'll get that from Thirsting Blade, it'll just be three levels delayed.

 

[Minigiant]

Only for class defining ones like Eldritch blast and the new sorcerer one.

 

[aco175]

I think it will scale like now, but I thought it was moving to a class feature in the playtest.

My preference is that cantrips do not scale or do half the damage they do now if they scale. Likely not a popular opinion though.

 

[Maxperson]

I think a change like this would have been playtested and talked about in feedback. It would cause too many waves to just spring on us.

 

[bedir than]

Heh, if they change it, most people wont realize it.

They'll put the change in the DMG

 

[tetrasodium]

That having been said, if you gain a Fighting Style, weapon, or armor from a Feat, it's probably already an upgrade to whatever your class is already doing, where getting a Cantrip from a race or Feat is not necessarily an upgrade, since it's something other classes are already doing (there are a few exceptions, like Spell Sniper).

Like, if I'm a Rogue and I get a Heavy Crossbow from a feat, that increases my damage- not by much, but it does. If my Rogue gets Archery Fighting Style, that's again, just a bonus. If my Rogue gets Fire Bolt, it's not doing him more good than anyone else who can use Fire Bolt. And if the Fire Bolt doesn't improve...then it's actively detrimental when he could deal much better damage with an actual ranged weapon already.

As for making casters acquire better implements to upgrade their Cantrips, this would assume that such things exist and could be acquired in all games, and that you'd get them at each new Tier, which is not an assumption 5e makes for anyone (you don't automatically get a +1 sword at level 5, for example).

Unless these implements are nonmagical, but I'm not sure what they would cost, since it's not like a Fighter has to trade out their starting weapon for a better nonmagical weapon to use their Extra Attack.

A cantrip is an upgrade to a PC who lacks them. The upgrade in question is one of having a broader set of action options at their disposal just as armor proficiency grants a broader set of defensive options.

Your rogue example is silly because it's an obviously bad cantrip choice for a ranged weapon viable rogue who can simply use a short bow and still enjoy their sneak attack. That rogue gains a distinctly broader set of options when you change the cantrip to something like mage hand, prestigitation, mold earth, guidance &so on.. heck even. Stuff like true strike and blade wars could be a boon depending on the eventual version of the spell we see. The fact that you didn't even consider a cantrip that might somehow synergize with or broaden a rogue's capabilities while talking about a hypothetical rogue taking a cantrip speaks volumes about how little thought went into that entire point.

As for making casters acquire better implements to upgrade their Cantrips, this would assume that such things exist and could be acquired in all games, and that you'd get them at each new Tier, which is not an assumption 5e makes for anyone (you don't automatically get a +1 sword at level 5, for example).

What you are describing is a design problem created by 20145e itself by trying to pretend magic items could be made optional without creating problems by doing little more than declaring it so and shifting a bunch of power onto the base PCs themselves.

Unless these implements are nonmagical, but I'm not sure what they would cost, since it's not like a Fighter has to trade out their starting weapon for a better nonmagical weapon to use their Extra Attack.

They could be. There are a lot of ways such a thing could be implemented and have the upgrades focus items gated. Some of them involve the cantrips tier being tied to an item itself just as a flsmetongue is better than a +1 longsword,others involve casters getting class abilities of their own that suitably improve their nonscaling cantrip focus or unlocking the ability to use better more powerful focus items than they were able to use at level one. Others involve shifting list at will power to leveled spells.

 

[CleverNickName]

If they change it, most people will ignore it.

I've been ignoring it for years. Multiclassing is optional, and I opt out.

 

[James Gasik]

A cantrip is an upgrade to a PC who lacks them. The upgrade in question is one of having a broader set of action options at their disposal just as armor proficiency grants a broader set of defensive options.

Your rogue example is silly because it's an obviously bad cantrip choice for a ranged weapon viable rogue who can simply use a short bow and still enjoy their sneak attack. That rogue gains a distinctly broader set of options when you change the cantrip to something like mage hand, prestigitation, mold earth, guidance &so on.. heck even. Stuff like true strike and blade wars could be a boon depending on the eventual version of the spell we see. The fact that you didn't even consider a cantrip that might somehow synergize with or broaden a rogue's capabilities while talking about a hypothetical rogue taking a cantrip speaks volumes about how little thought went into that entire point.

I chose Firebolt specifically for a reason- it scales (which is the point of this discussion, isn't it?), is arguably the best cantrip for scaling (since it lacks the issues of dealing easily resisted damage or is negated on a save).

Most classes that do not rely on cantrips for their "at-will" damage have class features that improve their attacks in such a way as to make it less desirable to use a cantrip, let alone one that does not scale. That is my point- there's very little reason to deny cantrip scaling to a character that acquires a cantrip through non-class means because their class chassis isn't designed around cantrip use.

About the only exceptions are the "weapon attack" cantrips and Eldritch Blast. I'm not discussing the former because 1, they aren't core, and 2, in this case, I agree those cantrips shouldn't have scaled at all, especially since they were designed for a subclass that also gains Extra Attack. For the latter, it should have been and hopefully will be a class feature.

I also can't really discuss the future True Strike until it's final form is revealed.

 

[LordEntrails]

What do you think. Will WOTC change the way cantrips scale?

No, but I voted caster level because that's what I think the rule should be. I despise caster dips just to get a powerful cantrip.