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Post your Lair Assault Results Here (Spoilers)

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Wiping out the party doesn't take precedent over keeping the encounter fun, KarinsDad.

You must be thinking of a different adventure. The players are supposed to be told with Lair Assault that this is the idea behind it.

It depends on what your players are mature enough to handle. Just tonight, we had a new player who never played 4E before (he played 3E). In one encounter, his defender PC was knocked unconscious round after round after round starting in round one (heal, KO, heal, KO, heal, KO), and he only got 1 attack in during the entire encounter. He was totally cool with it because his PC was doing his job of having foes attack him instead of someone else. As DM, I was watching him closely for signs of frustration and there were none.

I know of some players where this would not have been the case. It was cool that he wasn't wrapped all up in the "I lost my turn" stuff and I think we are getting a really good new player. :cool:

I played a scenario 2 months ago where I was running 2 PCs (mine, and a PC that had to be there, but the player couldn't make it last minute). A Beholder attacked the party and in 8 rounds, each PC got one round's worth of actions in. 2 rounds of actions out of 16. I didn't sit and pout about that. I laughed and had fun with the other players as they slowly took the Beholder out.

If players are able to do this in normal adventures, why would a DM want to hold their hand in a killer adventure?

Now, if you want to play the adventure with a normal goal of some level of fairness to all of the players, that's fine. But that's not the intent of the adventure, nor should it be.

Who'd enjoy sitting through the entire scenario as a witness after coming out to play.

Anyone who knew up front going in that this was a possibility? I know that I'd be ok with that. Maybe you should post a poll on it.

Are you saying that the game can only be fun (given the upfront premise) if players are given second chances?

The point is, sure, the DM can do this. But, he's throwing part of the challenge (what other players might be there for) out the window. With the background given, you are assuming that other players are there to be challenged, but only if the DM doesn't get lucky in round one? Huh? Maybe the other players wanted to still succeed, even though it started off so rough. But, they were not given that chance. The DM fudged (which the module states the DM shouldn't do).

We definitely come at this from different backgrounds. I'm used to playing chess, where the starting setup is always exactly the same, and post mortem analysis can take days. Lair Assault isn't chess, let alone the Kobiyashi Maru scenario, but it's still a tactical training scenario for both the DM and the players.

I played chess for decades. I was even the editor of the state newsletter.

If your opponent hangs his Queen, do you give him a take back?

I can definitely understand Lair Assault being used as a tactical training scenario. The thing is though, I'd rather be playing real D&D with fresh new and surprising encounters every session than playing in order to hone my player tactical skills a little. The former is exciting, the latter, not so much. But, I am glad that you are enjoying your sessions. I probably wouldn't after the first time or two. Different strokes.

There are things I'd like to see in future scenarios, such as randomly placed secret passages and maps that don't get displayed all at once. That's one advantage of laminated cards over fold-out maps. Another would allow for rooms to be changed at different times, rather than all at the end of the fourth round, as was the case here. I'd like a scenario that forced the party to have to consider splitting up at critical moments. I'd love to see every skill put to good use somewhere, preferably in ways where prior knowledge of the adventure did not negate the need for knowledge based skill checks.

Agreed.
 

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On Puget Sound

First Post
I finally got to play in a Lair Assault tonight. I built all the characters, and brought 8 to the table of which these 5 were chosen:
Thri-kreen charge-focused slayer
Elf archer ranger
Deva laser cleric
Genasi wizard/artificer magic missile machine
Bugbear knight

Of the 5 players, only two were experienced 4e players; a 3rd was a long-time 3.5/ pathfinder player who does not like 4e, and the remaining two were pretty new to the game. We didn't use some of our abilities as well as we could (or at all, in some cases) due to unfamiliarity with the characters and/or game, but for the circumstances I think we did pretty well. We made it to round 16 with Vell bloodied and alone in his forge room before the last of us fell.

Room 1 took 3 rounds to clear but sapped our hit points pretty well; the one character with sudden recovery armor used it too late and got only regen 5 instead of the 10 she could have had. No one spared an action to look at the fish, though the thri-kreen did disable the statue eventually.

We opened the door to the mud room just in time to watch the floor fall away in front of us. We were ready for that with Bridge of Roots, which we used to get across to engage the warlocks (the burning skelly died to missile fire right away). The knight almost one-shotted a warlock before being dumped in the lava by their attacks (we play that if you are already prone, you can't save vs forced movement and go even proner). An active Moment of Glory saved him, with resist 5 all to each of the attacks, the falling damage, and the mud damage saving 20 points that round!

As the others chased the warlocks into the next room and killed them, someone dropped a rope to the knight, which proved crucial as mud geysers and statues kept us from exiting the room easily and dropped the thr-kreen into the mud as well.

Clearing the third room left us all bloodied and out of all healing except a few potions - second winds used up as well. The critical loss was when the cleric went unconscious, failing to sustain Moment of Glory. We had started with 3 heals from the cleric (one from his holy healer's mace) and 1 from the wiz-art; not enough by a long shot.

We arrived at the porcullis ready to give one last push, and push we did. We killed one dragonborn, but the second breath weapon put the knight and slayer out for good. The archer's dice chose that moment to act like d6s instead of d20s, as with action point and elven accuracy he still failed to finish off the dragonborn blocking the entrance, leaving that to the 1 hit point cleric. The 3 squishies made it into the room and did a passable nova round, bloodying Vell before dying. Vell then completed his scepter and conquered the universe.
 

Zuche

First Post
You must be thinking of a different adventure. The players are supposed to be told with Lair Assault that this is the idea behind it.

No, I know which adventure this was. If there had been no alternate for the new guy to run, that would have been it. Letting a player run Konan meant the party wasn't forced to choose between leaving the barbarian behind in round three or the warden using one standard action to direct his mount to grab the character, but that was the only advantage gained and they paid for it in the time it took to rescue the horse, letting the enemies they'd left behind reach the forge first and thereby setting themselves up to run into a wall of readied actions.

Everyone knew that the outcome was decided the moment the first PC died. The decision only changed how the fourth player could continue to participate through a resource another player had acquired.

It depends on what your players are mature enough to handle.

Acceptance of misfortune is a mature response, but it does not end there. If the resources exist to accomodate people, use them. Maturity acknowledges that a party's failure here is not a DM's success. If there were no horses or henchmen or familiars, a host should still keep all players engaged, even if just to roll dice for the opposition.

Just tonight, we had a new player who never played 4E before (he played 3E). In one encounter, his defender PC was knocked unconscious round after round after round starting in round one (heal, KO, heal, KO, heal, KO), and he only got 1 attack in during the entire encounter. He was totally cool with it because his PC was doing his job of having foes attack him instead of someone else. As DM, I was watching him closely for signs of frustration and there were none.

I know of some players where this would not have been the case.

I had to recommend that one of the DMs from Encounters should avoid Lair Assault from either side of the table. He won't be running next season, and I'm glad he had the self-awareness to make that choice on his own. Nevertheless, he deserved the chance. It wasn't easy on him, or on the players that had to work through his triggers. Thankfully, they understand his limitations, and running things from the sidelines this season leaves me free to step in whenever there's a concern or dispute without disrupting another table.

Maturity means we find ways to accomodate other people, regardless of whether they themselves can handle adversity in a mature fashion. Please don't assume that the guy running Konan sat and pouted over his initial misfortune, because that wasn't the case. Whether or not he accepted it has nothing to do with his host's obligations to him.

If players are able to do this in normal adventures, why would a DM want to hold their hand in a killer adventure?

This isn't about hand-holding. It's about leadership. If the resource exists to keep a player in the game and the players request it, agree to the request.

A killer dungeon requires more fairness than usual. In Lair Assault, the DM is required to strive to shut players down as hard and fast as players do their opposition, an option that isn't always open to us, depending on the monsters involved.

Konan was no more effective than a horse normally would be. The only attacks it got were opportunities (which the warden did not share) because the DM underestimated what the animal could do on a critical hit--much less than any of the PCs could have done, admittedly, but enough to force him to reconsider after the second hit.

Are you saying that the game can only be fun (given the upfront premise) if players are given second chances?

How much fun is a roller coaster if you take your seat, the ride starts... and your car is left behind at the starting gate? That's what happened here. There is no challenge in dying before you can act. What can you do about it? Sure, sometimes that's just luck of the draw and you have to accept it.

However, if you were running two characters when the one run by another player died, wouldn't you hand over one of your characters for that person to play? Would you, as DM, ever consider giving the player of a dead character control over an NPC travelling with the group? As a mature individual in a social, cooperative game, the answer to both of those questions should be yes.

Knowing that, where exactly did this DM go wrong in allowing the PC-unencumbered player to play as the horse some other player had purchased with his starting gold? This was not fudging. Nothing new was introduced to the scenario.

If your opponent hangs his Queen, do you give him a take back?

In tournament play, I cannot. In casual play, I will do so if I'm enjoying the position enough that I don't want to see it spoiled by such a blunder. That said, a hung queen only removes the queen from play. If my opponent wishes to play on and still has rooks, I would expect to see them used.

The thing is though, I'd rather be playing real D&D with fresh new and surprising encounters every session than playing in order to hone my player tactical skills a little.

"Real D&D" is a loaded declaration, so I'll leave it alone. On the subject of new and surprising, you've surely read a short story twice and picked up on something new the second time?

A single run-through of this challenge does not give a person full appreciation for everything they (or it) can do, even if they ignore the glory awards. I doubt your party is facing entirely new opponents all the time, just as I doubt that an encounter with a repeated monster always plays out exactly the same way. Assuming it gets to act, there are times all players will see is its melee basic attack, and others when they'll be struggling to avoid offering it optimal use of an encounter or recharge power. Maybe that can't be avoided in some cases. Maybe this doesn't feel fresh and new to you, but then a lot of people take the same view of this hobby, seeing everything you present as nothing more than an exercise in dice rolling and pawn pushing.

Me, I'll take the view presented in R.A. MacAvoy's Tea with the Black Dragon: "Every time is the first time." There are just too many ways the same thing can be different for me to limit myself to, "Been there, done that."

Lair Assault wasn't going to be to all tastes. I'm not sure why you thought it would be to yours, since repeat play was established as part of the premise. It's not repeat play if everything changes. Still, here's hoping future installments may be of more interest to you.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Lair Assault wasn't going to be to all tastes. I'm not sure why you thought it would be to yours, since repeat play was established as part of the premise. It's not repeat play if everything changes. Still, here's hoping future installments may be of more interest to you.

I thought it would be to my taste before I read the character sheets of my players. Go back and reread my original post here. I was really psyched about it. Repeat play is fine as long as the DM has major control over challenging the PCs. He doesn't with this module.

The DM only has control over repeat monsters and repeat traps. I have players that wiped this thing the first time. 5 PCs out of 6 were not even bloodied at the end. They didn't even use their second winds.

Regardless of your opinion, there is no way I could have challenged them in a second encounter with the knowledge they gained after the first time and the major limitations the adventure has in changing things up.

If the rooms could change locations and if the PCs did not have a map, and/or if it wasn't a single encounter so that Daily powers did not become super effective, and/or if I could change what the oil and fish and cloaks and runes and pillars do, or when the 4th round damage occurs, then sure, I could throw up a decent encounter each time because I could surprise the players.

But, I cannot really surprise them.

This is a mostly damage challenge encounter against a group of players who came in with 9 heal spells, a few other healing Dailies, 7 healing potions, and a few ways to get temp hit points and resistance and a companion to suck up damage. If I could daze them or stun them or blind them, or even heaven forbid, outnumber them, then yeah, I might figure something else. But seriously, you have no clue here. My players would wipe this most if not all of the time no matter who the DM was as long as the DM is handcuffed with the module as written. As I mentioned earlier, I still had 400 points of damage that I had to yet do to TPK the party with the healing options that they had remaining. I did make a minor mistake or two and probably could have managed another 30 or 50 points of damage. Or, my dice could have been hotter. But the final outcome would have been similar. The players just came in with too many good options and next time would be even better for them.

The concept of Lair Assault was fine. A super challenge for players. The implementation, at least for the types of knowledgeable players I play with, was weak, even lame.

I'm glad that you enjoy it and find it fun. Sorry, but I find it to be a bit of a joke. Not because it cannot be played again, but because it doesn't have enough DM options to make playing it again really challenging (or even worthwhile) for my group. Just because your experience disagrees with mine does not invalidate my experience (or opinion) of this module.

As a DM, I can do two things. I can take total control of my game and throw brand new things that are hopefully interesting at my players every single week. Or, I can run them through an encounter multiple times where they won't really be surprised, but they will probably do better each time. Kind of like playing the same computer game from start to finish over and over again. I chose the former.
 

Rerednaw

Explorer
We tried it for the first time last weekend. First group was a PUG and made of a melee druid, a melee rogue, my human hunter, and a warlord. The group was not very experienced and we got bogged down trying to break down the wall and ran out of time due to bad luck (rounds 9-20 were spent trying to break the wall down.)

Second group played a pre-made group I had created the other week. I went with all-humans because I didn't want to fuss with trying to remember all the various race quirks. I kept it simple: hunter, 2 ranged thieves (superior xbows for the hunter, sbows for the thieves), shaman (elemental), and a warden (earthstrength). The warden and hunter had at-will slows and the ranged rogues had vicious advantage. That plus the shaman buffed the party with resist all 5 and granted extra attacks to the rogues. My hunter scored a kill by proning a flying bat and killing it with falling damage. One of the thieves scored a crit with his ranged basic for 49 points.

By the end of the encounter everyone except the warden got the glory award for not spending a healing surge. Other than the warden the next most wounded character was down 3 hp from max.

Key elements that made the session go easier:
Armor of Sudden Recovery-the DM (who watched me play a character with the same armor in the first session ran the second) did not have the elemental attack us, guess Asmodeus told the monsters about our special armor :p
Hunter L2 - Bridge of Roots.
Shaman Daily Protective Roots (con 20 = resist all 5, until end of encounter.)
Half the party had effective ranged attacks. 15(thieves with short bows) 20(hunter with superior xbow).
Shaman Spirit of Vigor feat (free temps when spirit summoned).

I think we killed the boss on round 12 or so...we were going to then try to get the rest of the doors/monsters for the glory points but we didn't know the game ended with the boss being dropped.

If we had not had the armor, the majority of the party would have been bloodied. But considering that between our shaman, healing pots, and other items we have about 12 surges worth of healing we still would have made it.

Bridge of roots also helped, but half the party already had a climb speed with an at-will so it ended up almost being redundant.

We don't know what the secret glory awards are so we're going to try a few other runs, but overall I did not find it to be that bad a run provided you have a organized group.
 
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Alphastream

Adventurer
I thought it would be to my taste before I read the character sheets of my players.

If the players are amazing and their characters insane, then they should win. The alternative is that the most perfect party would still have the luck of the dice, meaning the non-perfect would be doomed to fail. That isn't the kind of Lair Assault I want to see because it means tons of players would be disillusioned - they would know that most of them could never win and that even the ones that could have a random chance.

Simple things like Armor of Recovery combined with Moment of Glory plus some stance should make this encounter much easier. The Kobold Guide to Board Game Design had a free excerpt (I also own it, great read!) where a designer points out that we often play games to feel smart. Character generation can be an exercise in this, where each option we choose provides us with self-gratification that we have done well. Lair Assault can thus either crush that feeling or reinforce it. The DM's job is to be impartial while being sympathetic. You don't have a side, so you can destroy a PC while sympathizing or have your monster eliminated while you congratulate the player.

If the table is so good they will always win, then they have earned that distinction. It is ok to say "Guys, I have nothing more for you. I'm confident you will beat it again." Like a Kung Fu master, it is okay to admit that today the teacher has nothing for the student. However, this is the first Lair Assault. Would it surprise us if it is deliberately a bit easier? It might be. And, what works in one might not work in another.

I hate to hear about a good person like Nullzone having his build shut down... and that O-Assassin... ouch! I do think that is valid design space in Lair Assault (though I don't like it in other organized play). Yes, it will be detested by a few. And yes, it should be done carefully. But, I don't think designers should proof their adventures against having excessively hurt any type of PC. That's something that can just happen. As DMs, however, this is were we should really be sympathetic. Nullzone seems to have done a pretty awesome job, because even with this aspect of his PC shut down, he continued to draw the focus/ire of the DM. It was unfortunate that this was adversarial; had the DM been congratulatory and encouraging the experience might have been different. Nullzone clearly kept being effective and both sides should have been able to celebrate that.

This is the early stage of the program. Both players and DMs have much to learn over the next few months. Some of that learning is around improvement and hopefully most DMs (and players) will make the adjustments so the program is more fun each time.
 

Taed

First Post
Our third attempt was yesterday and we did quite well, but the DM wasn't being "evil". We had basically the same characters and took the same lava room route as the second attempt, but avoided some of the problems we had last time. At the end, only the two defenders were bloodied, and while we had some cleanup to do when we stopped (due to real-world time limit), that wouldn't have been an issue (although the defenders had a chance of unconciousness).

We'll give it another try with an evil DM (such as not having the fire elemental and Armor of Sudden Recovery interact) and on Nightmare mode. I anticipate not making it out of the first room...

One scenario showed up that seemingly wasn't quite covered by the rules. My warden knocked one of the Dragonborn prone and THEN was able to slide it into the lava. Since it was already prone, I suggested that it should not get a fall-or-prone saving throw. The DM reasonably decided that it should get a saving throw in that it could still try to grab onto something, which makes sense. Does anyone know if that scenario is covered by the rules for the future?
 

Saagael

First Post
One scenario showed up that seemingly wasn't quite covered by the rules. My warden knocked one of the Dragonborn prone and THEN was able to slide it into the lava. Since it was already prone, I suggested that it should not get a fall-or-prone saving throw. The DM reasonably decided that it should get a saving throw in that it could still try to grab onto something, which makes sense. Does anyone know if that scenario is covered by the rules for the future?

As far as I remember, you still get the saving throw even if you're prone. Falling prone is an result of making your save.

Realistically, it works. I don't care if someone is pushing me or rolling me off a cliff, I'm still going to try and grab hold of something.
 

hemera

Explorer
We had a teleport heavy group that was pretty unhappy they couldn't use their chosen method of movement. Plus the DM ruled the swordmages had to teleport if they marked. So they stopped marking, and the rest of the party got shredded fast. We weren't optimized or anything, as were just told it was a quick encounter and no big deal. It was pretty funny though.

Assault Swordmage
Assault Swordmage / Warlock Hybrid
Assassin (Original)
Telepathic Psion (Teleport Utility Power)
Cunning Bard (assassin multiclass to get the shadow walk feat)
Stone Fist Monk
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
If the players are amazing and their characters insane, then they should win. The alternative is that the most perfect party would still have the luck of the dice, meaning the non-perfect would be doomed to fail. That isn't the kind of Lair Assault I want to see because it means tons of players would be disillusioned - they would know that most of them could never win and that even the ones that could have a random chance.

Unless the alternative was that the DM could actually boost the adventure based on how many times his group has gone through it. It could be a somewhat challenging adventure for most people, but still get harder and harder for the well designed and played PCs. Add one monster to the entire adventure per unsuccessful time through and two monsters per successful time through. That, and have a lot of other DM options for adventure variability.
 

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