Post your Lair Assault Results Here (Spoilers)

[Alphastream]

Unless the alternative was that the DM could actually boost the adventure based on how many times his group has gone through it. It could be a somewhat challenging adventure for most people, but still get harder and harder for the well designed and played PCs. Add one monster to the entire adventure per unsuccessful time through and two monsters per successful time through. That, and have a lot of other DM options for adventure variability.

I see what you mean. I think the program is trying to be less "for the DM" and more "for the players" in that the DM is making a few changes within given options and the players are trying to best the set level of challenge. It isn't "DM, make your own challenge... are you the best encounter maker out there?"

Does that make sense? For example, the card players get is not something they can get every time. If they want bragging rights, they try again to get more boxes checked off. They also don't have to succeed each try to make some progress on checking boxes. The program seems to be really for the players to try to get these achievements (which is why DMs don't get a card).

I like your idea that the program could in theory have a scaling option beyond Nightmare mode for players. My question would be how often it would be employed. Most A-Team tables I know want to win and destroy. Oh, they want a challenge, but they want sweet victory. If the challenge is at level x and they best it, and they want to get more boxes checked, they want to again win rather than see it ratchet upwards in challenge. Not everyone will feel that way, of course, but I suspect most optimized teams aren't looking to play until they lose. The addition of nightmare x2, nightmare x3, and so on as check boxes may not be desired by a great number of players.

But, I'm curious. If you asked the optimized players that bested your challenge, would they want to play the same scenario again on nightmare x 4 mode? (Maybe add everyone takes 5 fire damage per round that ignores resistances, the place earthquakes every 3 rounds instead of on round 4, monsters have +2 AC and you get 3 times as many monsters...). You could always offer it informally, explaining the players don't get additional rewards. It could be an interesting experiment.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see what you mean. I think the program is trying to be less "for the DM" and more "for the players" in that the DM is making a few changes within given options and the players are trying to best the set level of challenge. It isn't "DM, make your own challenge... are you the best encounter maker out there?"

No, but Lair Assault should be configurable.

For example, the adventure is slightly configurable now. If you have 4 PCs, the difficulty is lowered. If you have 6 PCs, the difficulty is raised. But except for Nightmare mode which is a single option, there is no way for the DM to take into account the capabilities of the PCs and to really challenge the players.

My real issue here is that as a DM, I cannot fulfill WotC's advertising on this adventure without changing the adventure as written:

"You'll pit your wits against some of the most difficult encounters you've ever played."

My players don't consider the first Lair Assault encounter to be even close to one of the most difficult encounters they've ever played. I ran them (5 of them at first level) through part of Shards of Selune last weekend and they took on the final encounter first (it wasn't actually the first encounter of the day, but it's the first one where they got to a shard) and that 800 XP encounter (N+3) was magnitudes more challenging than Lair Assault for them (3 different PCs went unconscious a total of 6 times where at one point, 3 PCs were unconscious all at the same time).

That was a nail biter compared to Lair Assault for my group.

Granted, Lair Assault would be a killer dungeon if the players had brought in normal PCs straight out of a normal game. But giving the players the run of the books (plus fortune cards) made it a lot less of a challenge than many normal N+3 or N+4 encounters versus normal PCs in normal games.

Most PCs in most games do not have Armor of Sudden Recovery (our group playing Lair Assault didn't either), but I'll bet money that some future groups going into future Lair Assaults will have it. There are just too many great options and synergistic combinations when the game opens up all of the books and the players get to auto-pick the items without any DM control.

 

[Taed]

We assaulted the lair a fourth time, this time on Nightmare mode and with [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] acting as an "evil" GM. We were trying for a speed run with characters all the same race. Summary: Two out of five of us were down before even acting, and the others by the end of the third round.

We played 5 Void Genasi that one of the players put together (so 4 of us were unfamiliar with our characters). The thinking was that we'd make a run for the lava room (hopefully triggering an OE from the elemental to trigger our Armor of Sudden Recovery) and pop out of existence (I forget the power) and appear on the other side in the final room at the start of the second round. Only then would we start fighting.

Unfortunately, the first room did not have the fire elemental and hellhound as we had previously faced. Instead it had a hellhound, a handler, and 8 minion acolytes who were surrounding us in a semicircle when we entered the room.

Here's a simplified version of what transpired...

First round: We had one PC with a high initiative and he was able to run past them, triggering 3 OEs, but surviving, doing a double run (with a +4 speed on first round feat) to the far end of the lava room and popped out of existence -- a good start to our strategy. Next the hellhound went, fire breath, lit two pools on fire, lit up all 8 acolytes, who then rushed us and blew themselves up (around 17 fire damage close burst 1 each), resulting in 2 characters unconscious and the other 2 with single-digit hit points. But at least all the minions were dead! The two conscious PCs then ran for it, following our plan. The hellhound and handler then did a Coup de Grace the next round. Two dead characters who died without ever taking an action.

Next two rounds: Three PCs were in the final room and focused on the Tiefling, but didn't have enough firepower, but did bloody him at least.

In retrospect, we did not expect all the minions as had hadn't seen them previously. We needed a way to control them, such as a Wizard with Beguiling Strands. If we hadn't been working on Nightmare mode, I think our plan would have worked out well enough to at least get us all into the final room.

 

[Alphastream]

Ouch! This makes me really wonder what would have happened had my Hunter not gone first. I was able to kill all four minions that started in the first room, taking them out before they acted. I even used my elven re-roll on one.

She isn't incredibly optimized, but that accuracy and high initiative really helps.

 

[KarinsDad]

First round: We had one PC with a high initiative and he was able to run past them, triggering 3 OEs, but surviving, doing a double run (with a +4 speed on first round feat) to the far end of the lava room and popped out of existence -- a good start to our strategy. Next the hellhound went, fire breath, lit two pools on fire, lit up all 8 acolytes, who then rushed us and blew themselves up (around 17 fire damage close burst 1 each), resulting in 2 characters unconscious and the other 2 with single-digit hit points. But at least all the minions were dead! The two conscious PCs then ran for it, following our plan. The hellhound and handler then did a Coup de Grace the next round. Two dead characters who died without ever taking an action.

Because the other players were playing for a goal which did not include keeping their allies alive by killing foes. A speed run shouldn't mean movement only. That's a seriously major player mistake, even if the DM isn't pulling out all of the stops. It's one thing to get past the door, it's another to not fight doing it.

And if the DM has the foes arranged in a semi-circle in the oil around the PCs where the hellhound can light them up, sure. The adventure does allow for the suicide bomber technique. Although an interesting technique, it is a bit lame for the DM to figure out a way to do a "hundreds of points of damage" one shot in round one.

If the DM is going to do that, he might has well have a 100 foot pit trap at the entrance and average 55 points of damage for anyone still standing there. Pull a lever and most PCs are dead.

 

[Taed]

Ouch! This makes me really wonder what would have happened had my Hunter not gone first. I was able to kill all four minions that started in the first room, taking them out before they acted. I even used my elven re-roll on one.

As I understood the minions, when they're reduced to 0 HPs, they get a "suicide bomb run" of move 5 and then explode. So, unless the minions were far from you, they should have been able to attack you in that way when you killed them.

For us, the upon-death was activated when the hellhound blasted, lighting the oil pools on fire, which killed the minions standing in the pools, so they all got their death attack on the hellhound's initiative. It was excellent monster placement by the DM.

There was a minor debate about whether we should get a chance for opportunity attack against them when they did the suicide bomb run. Logically yes, but since they were already at 0 HPs, it wasn't like we could kill them more. We all had daggers and staves, so it's not like we could have cut them in half as they ran by (which would have been a good argument for allowing OAs if we had some martial characters). It was an upon-death power for them, so perhaps there was some verbage about opportunity attacks. As it was, we had an open square to the middle of the party, so they all ran and exploded in that square, hurting all of us. One PC who survived was just lucky, and the other was a Wizard who got up their Shield (with the +4 allowing them to miss enough to survive).

 

[Saracenus]

Alphastream's Hunter did kill them all at range so they were neutralized rather quickly. We did get hit by the second set over two rounds in the cloak room. But by that point we had our Regeneration 5 up and the party was spread out so it was impossible to destroy us in a mass suicide run.

Just as an FYI, normal mode caps the number of monsters per room at 3 and nightmare mode has a max of 4. So, the speed run on nightmare would have been the same on nightmare because there were only three monsters in the room.

I applaud the evil genius of the DM who came up with the suicide run. I used a similar tactic (minus the minions) and damaged the party badly from the get go. I killed 3 out 5 at the end and timing out at round 20 was the only thing that saved the rest of the party from a TPK.

I think that the cat and mouse game between players and DMs is an interesting development. Players bring X Grossness, DMs respond with B grossness in return. Circle of Unlife is completed.

Karinsdad, I have to say this event is not for you. You want this to be fair and balanced and that is not what this program is about. You have complained about LA being too easy and now you are complaining that its unfair. Well, welcome to Lair Assault. There is always growing pains with a new program.

When we started D&D Encounters (DDE) there were judges that ran it on hard mode like they were running a table of LFR with a bunch of organized play vets. Once people figured out that it was casual play with lots inexperience players the DMs settled into a rhythm and play experience has been much better for it. Also, there are plenty of other programs that are "fair" and "balanced" out there (LFR, Ashes of Athas, DDE, etc.). Lair Assault cannot be all things to all people, just as the other campaigns are not everyone's cup of tea.

I think that DMs are going to improve as they run this over and over. They will become more adept at using the abilities of the monsters (our DM made a few mistakes with the monsters and I know we made a few goofs with our PCs). The real interesting thing will be the evolution of Monster synergy that DMs will discover as they experiment with different combos.

I have said it earlier in the thread figuring out monster and terrain synergy will make or break the deadliness of this adventure. There is no one best way to run the opposition vs. the PCs as the strategic and tactical choices of the players will always be different.

My two coppers,

 

[Saracenus]

Damn, frippin' double post. My first one ever. Do I get and achievement or something?

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad, I have to say this event is not for you. You want this to be fair and balanced and that is not what this program is about. You have complained about LA being too easy and now you are complaining that its unfair. Well, welcome to Lair Assault. There is always growing pains with a new program.

I don't want it to be fair and balanced. But, I do want it to be semi-reasonable and not super ridiculous.

When one looks at the minions in the oil, one understands that it is a lose lose proposition for any group of PCs.

The DM did not have to have the Hell Hound hit the minions. The first PC that hits a minion will have that minion run in, do a close burst fire, which will light the oil, which will kill the rest of the minions, which will have them move in and blow up.

So, initiative doesn't matter. The DM was throwing hundreds of points of damage at the PCs regardless of who attacked a minion first. I like the concept of Lair Assault challenging the players beyond what they were ever challenged, but seriously. Think about it. The only reason the one PC didn't get caught up in this tactic was because he was moving away and taking 3 OAs to do it. The DM set up a scenario where it was likely to have 2 or 3 PCs unconscious and 2 or 3 only barely conscious in round one, almost regardless of what the players did. In fact, I was suprised that the DM had to do Coup de Grace in round two because two close burst ones (out of 8) on unconscious PCs (nearly autohit) should have killed them.

Any other group who were not trying to auto-teleport through the doors in round one would have gotten all 5 PCs creamed in round one. This group actually lucked out in that one PC got out of the room. This makes save or die look like a walk in the park because at least there, the players have a chance to save.

It's one thing to seriously challenge the players. It's another to cream the PCs regardless of initiative in round one. I don't see the point of playing the adventure if the DM is going to go to these extremes. In fact, even without nightmare mode, this tactic of 8 minions in the oil plus a single trap could have easily killed a few PCs in nearly any party. Put 3 NPCs behind the first door and and the finish the adventure in 5 rounds scenario is practically undoable.

 

[Taed]

Just as an FYI, normal mode caps the number of monsters per room at 3 and nightmare mode has a max of 4. So, the speed run on nightmare would have been the same on nightmare because there were only three monsters in the room.

I asked our DM why he didn't just put all of the monsters in the final room and he mentioned that there were limitations, but he did not think that there was a limitation of 4 monsters (or maybe minions don't count?) in the first room.

In the first room, he had 1 hellhound, 1 dog handler (don't know what that was, but he described it as someone holding the hellhound's leash), and 8 minions that blew up. The two statues were not traps or active in any way, so maybe that allowed more monsters?

Also, which room is being referred to as the "cloak room"? We've been calling them the first room, which them opens to the mud room, the lava room, and the arcane room. The final room is the final room. We actually haven't gotten to the final room in any way other than the lava room wall, so we don't know what's really after the mud room and arcane room.