Pounce with crafted weapons

[nyjm]

I have a character in my campaign that has taken the Feral template from Savage species. Feral creatures gain the Pounce (Ex) special ability.

Though I don't have the SS on me, the Pounce special ability for a tiger (and just about all other creatures from the SRD) reads:

Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

The question is, can a character with Pounce use it with crafted weapons. This feral chararacter has levels in Ranger, and has taken the Two-Weapon Fighting path. So, can a 2nd-level feral Ranger charge and make two attacks with his two crafted weapons?

As a DM, my gut reaction is: no. Pounce is limited to the creature's natural weapons, or at least crafted weapons that are Tiny in size. The image is of a creature literally leaping onto its opponent and tearing into it. This can only be done with natural (Tiny) weapons. Swinging swords (or any crafted weapon larger than Tiny) requires too much room.

However, the player in me understands the interest in using crafted weapons with this ability for the damage increase.

The SRD is not conclusive, and I can't find any creatures that use weapons AND have the Pounce ability for a model.

Opinions?

 

[sledged]

Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

A full attack is a full attack. It's not inconcievable that creature wielding manufactured weapons would have this ability, so if the designers had meant for it to only apply to natural weaponry, they would have specified it to work that way, and neither the MM nor the template give any limitation on the weaponry. Given that the template can only be applied to humanoids, it should be expected that the feral creature might use manufactured weapons.

The SRD is not conclusive, and I can't find any creatures that use weapons AND have the Pounce ability for a model.

I can't either, but the Lion of Talisid PrC in the BoED has Lion's Pounce, and it doesn't say it's limited to natural weaponry.

I say let the player have his full attack. If it gets to be a problem, you can always remove it.

 

[Zym]

FYI the Feral Template Special Attacks gained depend solely on Monsterous HD and not character level HD gained. So in order to get the pounce ability you need 4-7 Monsterous HD, a 2nd level Ranger of any race that has less than 4 base HD before adding class levels is out of luck.

The Special Qualities section also infers this by referring to the base creature.

The template is Inherited so the creature is born with it and applies it to the starting creature before any character levels are added.

Just thought I'd mention this as I've seen it missed a few times before with builds. I didn't see your race listed so it could very well be dandy.

IIRC thats correct, I'm sure if I missed anything important it will surface in the topic hopefully.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Ebberon master shifter (i'm at work, can't remember if that is the correct name) Prc class grants those with the tiger path pounce and specifically states that the character gets a full attack after a charge. I agree that if the designers had meant for it to only refer to natural weapons they would have stated specifically in the SS or would have at least not allowed it in EcS. I would rule that a full attack is a full attack, whatever weapons the person may be wielding.

 

[nyjm]

Well, checked the Savage Species. It's silence is deafening, saying nothing at all about manufactured or natural weapons. Indeed, you get a full attack with whatever weapons you have.

FYI, the character in question is actually a stony feral anthromorphic baleen whale ("stony" from Monsters of Faerun), so as a 2nd-level Ranger he has 5 HD, but only an ECL of 7. I think he's really over-powered, but it balances out in my campaign since he's the only tank in a party of four spell-casters and a pixie rogue (yeah, it's eclectic). Given hindsight, I'd definitely change the anthro baleen whale to at least LA +1 and make the Feral template LA +2, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for the advice, time to make my player's day.

 

[Hypersmurf]

FYI, the character in question is actually a stony feral anthromorphic baleen whale ("stony" from Monsters of Faerun)

Baleen Whale only has 3 racial hit dice, right? So no Pounce from Feral.

-Hyp.