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Pathfinder 1E Power and Pathfinder Classes - Forked Thread: Pathfinder - sell me

AND this is what I want someone to address.
If my wizard takes a spell from a Wotc book, or heck what if they take 6 diffrent spells from 6 diffrent books...how much work will that put on me?

What abour feats, and other things??

How can anything be called backward compadable if I can't just pull out complete Mage and grab anyspell I want and add it without asking MY DM to look it over for approval.


How much work do they cause you now? You may allow anything you like, that's up to you. PRC's and feat Requirements may need reworked but thats not hard and it's only for skill requirements. If something says you need 8 ranks in a skill that means 5. If it says 15 that is 12 and so on.

backward compatible does not mean I can use it 100% . What it does mean is can I use this with little work

Look at 3.0 to 3.5 many classes, skill , spells and feats got overhauled. Does that mean 3.0 books are useless? Not at all, I have run 3.0 and 3.5 stuff with little ot no changes. I have run savage tide and curse of the crimson throne with no changes. I have run death in freeport(3.0) with almost no change. and that change was on the fly

And some DM did not allow any spell form any book unseen I know I sure do not. But if they did in 3.5 I fail to see much issue in pathfinder. Sure there will be some changes not much diff then 3e to 3.5
 

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Slife

First Post
The main issue with the attempts made to balance 3rd edition in pathfinder is that the people trying to rebalance don't really know the current problems in the system. For example, pumping up the WIZARD in order to "keep up with splatbooks" is patently absurd - wizards are, if not the most powerful class, at least in the top five.

Monks and fighters, on the other hand, are approximately as good as adepts in terms of combat capabilities.

If you're going to say anything about the power of core relative to splatbooks, you might as well say that the core books are more unbalanced - the cleric, druid, and wizard are three of the five most powerful classes, the candle of invocation is the most broken item, and the fighter is the second worst PC class (right before the complete warrior version of the Samurai).

If Pathfinder had started by addressing the obviously broken things (like the Candle of Invocation), rather than making things worse, I'd have a better opinion of them.


As is, for a "balanced" 3e, I'd just ban anything with full casting except specialists like the dread necromancer, warmage, beguiler, et cetra, ban the monk, and rename the warblade "fighter". Maybe if I was feeling generous I'd give druids the option to pick one of (wildshape/spells/animal companion), and gain half progression of another.
 
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No more work than when DMing a 3.Xe game. The 3e and 3.5e splat books were notorious for their quirky power level differences for feats, PrCs, and spells. If you were really, really lucky the offending OP'd feature was nerfed in an errata a year or two later after a large majority of DMs already houseruled or banned said features.

I had very little problem with useing all wotc books with 3.5 no changes needed...Ok I will admit we just didn't use polymorph things...

So let me get this straight, you are asking a publisher (Paizo) to be responsible for the balance of literally dozens of splat books that they never even published? How can you ask that of a publisher not even responsible for the printed material when even the original publisher (WotC) wasn't even able to do so?
No expect that of anyone who claims backwards compadbility...if it is not able to use them...then admit it.

can I use my $1,000 worth of books out of pocket, or do I need to modfy...
I CAN modfy rifts books to work with 3rd edtion, or Gurps powers to work with 4e...but I would NOT call it compadable systems...

Asking the DM for approval IS in their job description. Any DM worth their salt will always make the call prior to the game via limiting or opening up what books will be available for the game and will peruse choices as characters select them to be sure they are appropriate (in power level, in character, thematic, etc.) for the campaign. No different than in any other 3.x D&D game that used the WotC splat books and/or 3rd party materials.


Well for the last 2 years we have been playing ALL WOTC books are fair game, 3pp need approval. It allows us to know what we are getting into ahead of time. However Piazo is asking us to dump that for 1 book, that I have to pay $50 for???


Any good DM that has run 3e and 3.5e for any amount of time would be able to tell you the same.

great so i guess me and all of my group are BAD DMs...

How much work do they cause you now? You may allow anything you like, that's up to you.
well right now it takes me 1 moment, just enough time to say "WotC 3.5 books are all Ok, newest source is our rules set"



backward compatible does not mean I can use it 100% . What it does mean is can I use this with little work
so how much work is 'little'?

Look at 3.0 to 3.5 many classes, skill , spells and feats got overhauled. Does that mean 3.0 books are useless? Not at all, I have run 3.0 and 3.5 stuff with little ot no changes. I have run savage tide and curse of the crimson throne with no changes. I have run death in freeport(3.0) with almost no change. and that change was on the fly

Once again...I can take a Final Fantasy power and make it a 2nd edtion spell with X amount of work...but that is work that should not bee needed if the sytem is compadiable.


And some DM did not allow any spell form any book unseen.

Since both I and another guy in our group have every singe Wotc published 3.5 book I am unable to respond to your 'unseen' idea...



Just to recap, this new book was ment to KEEP 3.5 Alive...if it successed in it then I can pull a spell that is in the spell compandium and through it in with out a problem...or I can throw archivasts and Favored souls, and Scouts in...

again if they changed enough then isn't it really just plug and play then it is a new edtion...
 

Remathilis

Legend
No more work than when DMing a 3.Xe game. The 3e and 3.5e splat books were notorious for their quirky power level differences for feats, PrCs, and spells. If you were really, really lucky the offending OP'd feature was nerfed in an errata a year or two later after a large majority of DMs already houseruled or banned said features.

So let me get this straight, you are asking a publisher (Paizo) to be responsible for the balance of literally dozens of splat books that they never even published? How can you ask that of a publisher not even responsible for the printed material when even the original publisher (WotC) wasn't even able to do so?

Besides, backwards compatibility simply refers to the *mechanics* of the game system and does not necessarily account for the balance of the myriad of splat books and 3rd party issuance in existence.

Asking the DM for approval IS in their job description. Any DM worth their salt will always make the call prior to the game via limiting or opening up what books will be available for the game and will peruse choices as characters select them to be sure they are appropriate (in power level, in character, thematic, etc.) for the campaign. No different than in any other 3.x D&D game that used the WotC splat books and/or 3rd party materials.

Any good DM that has run 3e and 3.5e for any amount of time would be able to tell you the same.

So this leaves me where exactly?

Before Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

After Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

That's progress!

Now, I know Paizo can't take into account every WotC or 3pp supplement and how it will effect balance. No company could (or should) do that. However, by ramping up the power-levels on the game, it will fix as many problems as it creates new ones.
 

So this leaves me where exactly?

Before Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

After Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

That's progress!
that also makes it the least useful purchase ever...I gain nothing.



Now, I know Paizo can't take into account every WotC or 3pp supplement and how it will effect balance. No company could (or should) do that. However, by ramping up the power-levels on the game, it will fix as many problems as it creates new ones.

See right now I know what works and what doesn't, so do my group. So I know if PC A plays a Warlock, PC B plays a Warblade, PC C plays a Wizard, and PC D plays a Soul Knife that they all made an informed decision.

So again if 2 years ago we had a game with an Archivast, and a Warlock and 3 phb classes I would know they are pretty balanced...BUT now all the PHB classes got uped...so????
Also what about races??? lets think this through how do we address other races? the Non PHB ones now are not going to follow the same systemt eh PHB ones do...

So forget class...just look at elf...how does it look against Xeph???
 

Cadfan

First Post
The main issue with the attempts made to balance 3rd edition in pathfinder is that the people trying to rebalance don't really know the current problems in the system. For example, pumping up the WIZARD in order to "keep up with splatbooks" is patently absurd - wizards are, if not the most powerful class, at least in the top five.

(snipping a bit more about backwards compatibility and boosting lesser classes)
Serious answer: things like "backwards compatibility" and "pumping up the lesser classes to match the better ones" are slogans that mean almost nothing. Obviously they nerfed the wizard a bit. Anyone willing to look at matters with open eyes can see that they did so, no matter what Paizo or Paizo fans might say. After all, they nerfed several different types of spells, such as save or die and polymorph. That's called nerfing the wizard.

The best thing to do is to actually read the changes they made, and ignore the forum rhetoric and the attempts at pleasing fans by telling them what they want to hear.

I'm not the biggest lore keeper of Pathfinder or anything, but it seems to me that if your goal is to find an rpg which is:

1. Basically 3e but with rewritten classes, and
2. Actively supported with new publications,

then Pathfinder seems a great way to go. If those things are unimportant to you, then what RPG you choose is a bit more up in the air.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
So this leaves me where exactly?

Before Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

After Pathfinder: I search through every supplement looking for rule abuses, broken abilities, and potential power combos just to make my game work.

That's progress!

If you agree with the changes made in Pathfinder, yep, sure is progress. And I agree with a lot of them as presented in the Beta.

Is it progress on all issues? Probably not, because it can't touch the ones introduced by non-OGL sources - like the orb spells. On the other hand, by changing the rules of polymorph in general, it does rather fix the issues presented by introduction of new creatures to polymorph into in later Monster Manuals.

So you may still be scrutinizing some stuff. I'm reasonably confident, based on the Beta and the way I play, that I'll be scrutinizing less than I am now. That's progress in my book.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Note that even if only (or mostly) PC hit points were improved without effects on NPCs/monsters, the increased survivability does equate to increased power level in my mind and shifts the baseline.

You are really, really vastly overstating the value of hit points with regards to their effect on game balance-- and especially to the balance between classes.

Let's say a player in your game plays a cleric with a 10 CON. Will you forbid the wizard player from having a 14 CON? Your argument is that all sorts of bad things will happen, from diluting the flavor differences between the classes, to prolonging combat, etc.

You surely realize that the difference between those two CON modifiers (2 hit points/HD) is exactly the same difference between d4 HD and d8 HD.

It's very, very small in the long haul.

Increasing the wizard HD from d4 to d6 is a difference of 1 hit point per level on average and 2 hit points per level at best.

So I respectfully submit that your response to this "power escalation" is almost purely an emotional one. You're seeing "bigger HD!" and having a bit of a freak out.

Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one. I have explicitly chosen not to criticize the idea of a starting hit point bonus (if done right), because that is well-targeted at a real issue: low level survivability. Hit dice increases, by contrast, grant hit points over levels and are poorly targeted at helping low-level survivability.

1 hit point per level on average, 2 hit points per level at best.

Still, even without doing that, a starting hit point bonus is something I feel generally positive towards, because it is so well targeted and does not increase with levels, thus becoming less and less significant over time.

Your argument is presented rationally-- deceptively so.

The difference between the HD is almost entirely superficial. Clearly there is a difference between a d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12. We can compare any two and easily determine which is "better;" and if therefore there is such a thing as a better HD, it certainly seems "meaningful" to raise them.

But it's a very superficial judgment. Because the mechanics really aren't fine tuned enough to distinguish between a 1 or 2 hit point difference per HD.

You need to make a big change-- for example the big hit point boost at 1st level, as we discussed-- to make the difference felt. And yes, that is a very good and very targeted change, made when its impact will actually make a mechanical difference.

It's certainly valid now to ask, "Well, then why raise the HD at all, if the impact will hardly be felt at high levels?" and I would have to admit that it is very superficial, almost purely psychological. From a design standpoint it's helpful to put everyone on the same footing with respect to HD, because at least then we can make other apple-to-apple comparisons when we're balancing other things out.

Wizards are the only creature-- regardless of what type of creature they are-- that use a d4. That's certainly odd.

I don't know how exactly you implement Action Points, but I use what I call Luck Points in my game, which essentially enable the character to boost a roll. If that is what you mean by action points, than I agree that they are a good idea.

That's what I meant.

It also has the advantage of mitigating the various effecting save or die effects that are not death effects, such as turn to stone/petrification and so on.

Yep, exactly.
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
Wizards are the only creature-- regardless of what type of creature they are-- that use a d4. That's certainly odd.
Commoner!

Anyway, I agree (that the changes to HD can easily look more significant than they really are.) Seeing that they're not, so much, that is. :)
 

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