Pathfinder 1E Power and Pathfinder Classes - Forked Thread: Pathfinder - sell me

[GMforPowergamers]

One word: ban

Seriously, you can't argue about the balance between core book classes if you bring up non-core options, being they WotC splat books, 3pp or whatever.

If the core book *only* is balanced enough, it's good for me. Then, I and only I can choose which options from the splats do I allow. I'm not forced to allow broken 3pp stuff if I don't want to (and WotC splats are now effectively 3pp stuff).

WOW...ok so you guys don't want to sell me at all on this...you just want me to change not only my, but my whole extened groups play stlye...
Just WOW..

I have NEVER played core only ANYTHING...EVER. I own every single WotC 3.5 book, and I do not Ban them...I have had problems, but theyy self correct overtime. I very rarely see the same player use the smae trick twice, becuse we pride ourselves on making new characters, so Core only gets old fast...

I want to see 3.5 kept alive...NOT just someone else take on 4e...

I want my and matts investment in EVEERY WotC book to be useful WITHOUT BANING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to have to go through and modfy books that should work with the system, I want to save that work for homebrew and 3pp (Like mongoose that takes aot of work)

So please if you think our play styl is wrong keep it to your self...How hard is it to say I WANT MY 3.5 BOOKS TO STILL BE USEABLE...

 

[billd91]

WOW...ok so you guys don't want to sell me at all on this...you just want me to change not only my, but my whole extened groups play stlye...
Just WOW..

I have NEVER played core only ANYTHING...EVER. I own every single WotC 3.5 book, and I do not Ban them...I have had problems, but theyy self correct overtime. I very rarely see the same player use the smae trick twice, becuse we pride ourselves on making new characters, so Core only gets old fast...

I want to see 3.5 kept alive...NOT just someone else take on 4e...

I want my and matts investment in EVEERY WotC book to be useful WITHOUT BANING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to have to go through and modfy books that should work with the system, I want to save that work for homebrew and 3pp (Like mongoose that takes aot of work)

So please if you think our play styl is wrong keep it to your self...How hard is it to say I WANT MY 3.5 BOOKS TO STILL BE USEABLE...

So use them.

But then don't complain to Paizo that things the splat books added to 3.5, and are untouchable by Paizo, are still broken in PF. The spells you mentioned can be pretty challenging when it comes to balancing clerics vs fighters, but both the Persistent spell metamagic feat and Divine Metamagic feat that are making them so broken are splat book additions to the system.

Besides, this point is more the banning of a couple of feats that were dubious when they debuted than the wholesale banning of books.

 

[Remathilis]

I think they considered the 2e spheres an experiment that failed and wanted to get back to 1e roots with general spell lists per class. And I don't have a serious beef with that, they're entitled to their own conclusions based on the feedback they got from players, though I will say that I actually like the spheres system and the potential it had.

But Aberzanzorax is definitely right about too much flexibility. Back in the 1e days, the cleric and druid spell lists were quite short compared to the wizard's for many levels. That worked out fairly well because the relative lack of options balanced off being able to choose from all of them on any given day. And it's why the next campaign I run will be much stricter with the addition of non-core spells for classes that prep off a whole list.

I've so wanted to replace all prep-casters with spontaneous casters (+ reserve feats) but my players threatened mutiny if I did.

I wonder if they've changed their mind in the 4e era...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So use them.

But then don't complain to Paizo that things the splat books added to 3.5, and are untouchable by Paizo, are still broken in PF. The spells you mentioned can be pretty challenging when it comes to balancing clerics vs fighters, but both the Persistent spell metamagic feat and Divine Metamagic feat that are making them so broken are splat book additions to the system.

Besides, this point is more the banning of a couple of feats that were dubious when they debuted than the wholesale banning of books.

So again...they have done nothing to stop CODzilla, BUT they want to claim to have fixed the system.

Oh and they can't address 99% of the game, so they are just makeing anew one...

yea everytime I come to one of these threads to try to find any redaming parts to the pathfinder system I again and agin find the same thing...the only good point is they are good people writing it...and that is not enough for me...


lets take persisten out...right befor ethe big fight they buff with X Y and Z spells...then tell the fighter "Don't worry I got this becuse (Break out into musical number ANNYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER, I CAN DO ANYTHING BETTER THEN you..."

there are wizard and cleric spells that meka you better at everything...so a party of casters is much better then one with none.

Party 1 Fighter, Rouge, Ranger
Party 2 Cleric, Wizard, Druid

look it is simple one is MUCH better then the other...

 

[AllisterH]

Personally, I disagree with Wulf (and I think WOTC agrees with me).

The themed spontaneous spellcasters were not only effective, but flavorful and much more balanced in comparison with one another and melee than the catchall wizard or even sorceror.

A game consisting of a favoured soul, dread necromancer, beguiler and a crusader I found much less open to abuse and easier to construct adventures for than the classic PHB party of cleric, wizard, rogue and fighter.

 

[billd91]

So again...they have done nothing to stop CODzilla, BUT they want to claim to have fixed the system.

Who said they've done nothing to stop CODzilla?
Wildshape has been decidedly put under controls - making it harder to become a combat monster AND super-powerful spellcaster for free. That something to rein in the D in CODzilla.
Clerics lose some 1st-5th level spellcasting. Divine Power does not raise the character's BAB to character level or increase his strength but offers a bonus to hit and damage (and strength checks) that can't stack with Divine Favor, and Righteous Might reduces the bonuses for Strength and DR compared to the SRD (though the PH errata included similar reductions so there won't be huge changes if you used that version).
If I had my druthers, I'd nerf Rightous Might a bit more, but we've moved considerably to keep fighters better at fighting than clerics.

Oh and they can't address 99% of the game, so they are just makeing anew one...

yea everytime I come to one of these threads to try to find any redaming parts to the pathfinder system I again and agin find the same thing...the only good point is they are good people writing it...and that is not enough for me...

If you're not going to discuss the actual differences or merits of the changes other than to deny they exist in the face of all evidence, I'm not sure there's a point in continuing the discussion.

 

[MrGrenadine]

...so a party of casters is much better then one with none.

Party 1 Fighter, Rouge, Ranger
Party 2 Cleric, Wizard, Druid

look it is simple one is MUCH better then the other...

That may be true, but not everyone who plays is a powergamer who looks at the game as something to win. I could care less if an all caster party is intrinsically more powerful than an all melee party--I just know I want to play a specific character, (in other words, a combination of class and personality that I find interesting), and I hope that everyone else does the same. In fact, I usually try to pick combinations that aren't that common, or put a twist on an oldie-but-goodie, just so there won't be too much overlap between my concept and anyone else's. Then, no matter what classes make up the party, I expect the DM to tweak the adventure so everyone gets to shine.

So I understand that Pathfinder hasn't solved your Codzilla problem, but thats not a problem for everyone. As far as I'm concerned, Pathfinder is a big improvement on 3.5 in a variety of ways, and I love the company, and I can't wait for my pre-ordered book to show up. We're 30 sessions into Rise of the Runelords using the Beta rules, and I expect the final rules to make the gameplay even better.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Personally, I disagree with Wulf (and I think WOTC agrees with me).

I am typically pleased to find myself in disagreement with WoTC's designers.

 

[Mournblade94]

I have NEVER played core only ANYTHING...EVER. I own every single WotC 3.5 book, and I do not Ban them...I have had problems, but theyy self correct overtime. I very rarely see the same player use the smae trick twice, becuse we pride ourselves on making new characters, so Core only gets old fast...

I want to see 3.5 kept alive...NOT just someone else take on 4e...

I want my and matts investment in EVEERY WotC book to be useful WITHOUT BANING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to have to go through and modfy books that should work with the system, I want to save that work for homebrew and 3pp (Like mongoose that takes aot of work)

So please if you think our play styl is wrong keep it to your self...How hard is it to say I WANT MY 3.5 BOOKS TO STILL BE USEABLE...

What you need to do in this case is bring your complaints to WOTC, because PAIZO can do nothing to help you. The splat books are all owned by WOTC as you know and are not part of the SRD. They are not materials with which PAIZO can work. Wizards made the expansion guides obsolete by publishing a new edition, PAIZO did not. PAIZO is making the best of a bad situation for those that liked the integrity of 3rd edition.

I am perfectly OK never using a WOTC crunch expansion, as I ban most classes that are not prestige classes. I can understand why you want to use them, but in that case you need to make a case to WOTC if you care enough.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If you're not going to discuss the actual differences or merits of the changes other than to deny they exist in the face of all evidence, I'm not sure there's a point in continuing the discussion.

there is no point to contunue this discussion since you belive I ignoreed somethinge that does not exsit. the first evidence is from this same post

Wildshape has been decidedly put under controls - making it harder to become a combat monster AND super-powerful spellcaster for free. That something to rein in the D in CODzilla.
Clerics lose some 1st-5th level spellcasting. Divine Power does not raise the character's BAB to character level or increase his strength but offers a bonus to hit and damage (and strength checks) that can't stack with Divine Favor, and Righteous Might reduces the bonuses for Strength and DR compared to the SRD (though the PH errata included similar reductions so there won't be huge changes if you used that version).

by the wway it helps...although not much becuse it only address some of the problem

So I understand that Pathfinder hasn't solved your Codzilla problem, but thats not a problem for everyone.

maybe you two ashoul look back at my first post in this thread...it responded to this:

My expectation is that CODzillas will no longer be the UBER.

however as usual I am being attack for habing the nerve to ask HOW.
so again I ignored NO EVADANCE since th first time anyone responed to me with any was the same post they accused me of ignoreing it.

By the way I am sick of hearing about what a good company Piazo is. I don't care if they donate 100% of there profits to feed starving orphens...I want to discuss the product, but it again seams clair to me that you do not.

so go support your company, but realize that I am trying to find reasons to buy the book and all you are doing is giving me reason not (being alienated byt eh badwrongfun police)

so goodbye I am done with this...I will stay with my 3.5 and 4e and rifts and M&M and gurps and WW