Pathfinder 1E Power and Pathfinder Classes - Forked Thread: Pathfinder - sell me

[ShinHakkaider]

Ugh, Never mind...

 

[AllisterH]

The HP boost I consider a relatively good fix. It affects the low level survivability (basically now, a wizard doesn't keel over from being nudged) but has no discrenible effect past levels 3.

Remember, you don't look at the capabilities in a vacuum but in regards to the opposition.

After level 4 for example, I don't see any difference in how many rounds it takes to drop a wizard than it does now since monsters do increasinly more damage.

I'm more concerned with the addition of class features and such. For example, a barbarian ALREADY outdamages a warblade (closest martial adept) and yet they added more numbers (along with some flexibility).

I know I sound like a broken record, but really, most of the Base classes and PrC released by WOTC don't compare in sheer raw power of the 3.5 PHB classes.

Sure, there are things like the PRC, Planar Shepherd and spells like shivering Touch, but I have a lot of WOTC 3.5 material and I personally believe at least 75% of the material released were at BEST, equal to the 3.5 PHB stuff.

What really concerns me is the rocket tag nature that I see in the classes. In 3.5, especially ironically in paizo modules, by level 13, "he who wins initiative just plain WINS" thanks to how "tuned" both the monsters and enemies are.

The so called sweet spot in 3.5 of levels 4-12 seem to have only shifted in PF to levels 1-10 when my friends played the beta...Still, I'll take a look in the actual released book to see for myself...

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Ok, but here is my quastion. If player A is a Cleric who uses persitant spell to put up Rightus might, Divine power, Sheild of Faith, and Greater Magic weapon... And player B is a 12th level fighter, is there a diffrence in there melee capability? What if the Cleric uses the spell that gives feats??

Well, mechanics wise, persistent spell uses a slot 6 levels higher than the original spot. So making these persistent would require:

Righteous Might- 11th level spell- epic level caster
Divine Power- 10th level spell- epic level caster
Shield of Faith- 7th level spell- 13th level caster
Greater Magic Weapon- 10th level spell- epic level caster

So it isn't really fair to compare this to a 12th level fighter.


That said, I get that a cleric could try and take all these sorts of spells and become a "fighting cleric". Really, that would be okay with me so long as they couldn't also raise the dead, heal themselves and everyone else, rain fire from the sky, shape stone, wind walk, scry, etc. etc. etc.

I had a player who was a favored soul. He actually did do this...take the fightery spells and a few healing spells. He ended up on par with the rest of the party and took on a fighter/paladin's role.


With the nerfs that I suggest (i.e. not ever cleric gets access to every spell in every book that was ever released), players have to define a role for themselves with spell choice. That can be a fighter's role with a nonfighter class...which is fine, in my opinion.

The problem with CODzillas is not that they are more powerful than others per se. It is that they can do everything that everyone else can do (given time to choose spells wisely). Their choice is too broad, and limiting that alone would fix a lot of the issues with those characters.

Please note that I'm not saying "they can't have a spell from a certain book." I'm saying that they need a mechanism like wizards or sorcerors that forces them to learn a limited number of spells. No longer should a new book come out and suddenly the Wizard and Sorceror know no more spells and the Cleric and Druid suddenly know 50 more that they can ask their god/nature for...that's just silly balance, in my opinion, but it is what the rules allow as written, as far as I can tell.

It is a simple matter to change that, in my opinion.

 

[AllisterH]

Definitely agree with Aberzanzorax.

Unless you fundamentally change the cleric and the druid so that every new book isn't "automatic increase in flexibility", Codzilla will regin supreme.

As the "what do you miss from previous edition" thread pointed out, the SPHERE system was actually a good thing (especially once they OFFICALLY actually reorganized the spells properly in Spell & Magic).

Never got why this got dropped from the switch from 2e to 3e.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well, mechanics wise, persistent spell uses a slot 6 levels higher than the original spot. So making these persistent would require:

Righteous Might- 11th level spell- epic level caster
Divine Power- 10th level spell- epic level caster
Shield of Faith- 7th level spell- 13th level caster
Greater Magic Weapon- 10th level spell- epic level caster

So it isn't really fair to compare this to a 12th level fighter.

2 words Divine Metamagic...mo extra levels so


Righteous Might- 5th level
Divine Power- 4th level
sheild of Faith- 1st
Greater Magic Weapon- 3rd

so now what??? 10th level caster cou;ld do it...oh AND heal, AND throw fire from the sky, AND raise the dead...

 

[Betote]

2 words Divine Metamagic...mo extra levels so

One word: ban

Seriously, you can't argue about the balance between core book classes if you bring up non-core options, being they WotC splat books, 3pp or whatever.

If the core book *only* is balanced enough, it's good for me. Then, I and only I can choose which options from the splats do I allow. I'm not forced to allow broken 3pp stuff if I don't want to (and WotC splats are now effectively 3pp stuff).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One word: ban

Seriously, you can't argue about the balance between core book classes if you bring up non-core options, being they WotC splat books, 3pp or whatever.

In my experience, the people who scream the loudest about the broken combos are the folks most intent on using them.

If it's a huge, glaring, persistent problem, just don't allow it.

Duh.

 

[billd91]

As the "what do you miss from previous edition" thread pointed out, the SPHERE system was actually a good thing (especially once they OFFICALLY actually reorganized the spells properly in Spell & Magic).

Never got why this got dropped from the switch from 2e to 3e.

I think they considered the 2e spheres an experiment that failed and wanted to get back to 1e roots with general spell lists per class. And I don't have a serious beef with that, they're entitled to their own conclusions based on the feedback they got from players, though I will say that I actually like the spheres system and the potential it had.

But Aberzanzorax is definitely right about too much flexibility. Back in the 1e days, the cleric and druid spell lists were quite short compared to the wizard's for many levels. That worked out fairly well because the relative lack of options balanced off being able to choose from all of them on any given day. And it's why the next campaign I run will be much stricter with the addition of non-core spells for classes that prep off a whole list.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But Aberzanzorax is definitely right about too much flexibility. Back in the 1e days, the cleric and druid spell lists were quite short compared to the wizard's for many levels. That worked out fairly well because the relative lack of options balanced off being able to choose from all of them on any given day. And it's why the next campaign I run will be much stricter with the addition of non-core spells for classes that prep off a whole list.

I'm in favor of just the opposite-- give everyone the same flexibility that clerics enjoy.

I don't like the "Spells Known" mechanic because it encourages severe munchkinism with respect to your spell choices-- you simply don't have any choice but to choose the absolute "best" spell off your available lists at any given time. It actively stifles creative choices.

So I'm moving towards a "Ready Spell" mechanic for all classes (see Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed) though I am certainly in favor of a single, unified spell source-- I'll either use the core rulebook, or (plug, again) Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm in favor of just the opposite-- give everyone the same flexibility that clerics enjoy.

I don't like the "Spells Known" mechanic because it encourages severe munchkinism with respect to your spell choices-- you simply don't have any choice but to choose the absolute "best" spell off your available lists at any given time. It actively stifles creative choices.

So I'm moving towards a "Ready Spell" mechanic for all classes (see Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed) though I am certainly in favor of a single, unified spell source-- I'll either use the core rulebook, or (plug, again) Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury.

Some people like a certain... "micro-management" in their campaigns, deciding which spells will become available and which not.

But I definitely don't like this as an approach for a game system. You can't just assume that nobody would allow a character that has "Scrying" also to have "Teleport" (to pick one of those favorite 3E combos.). Of course it is more difficult to design a new spell if you have to consider how it can be "abused". But it might not be all that difficult if you have certain guidelines. For example:
- At what level get characters long-range teleportations?
- At what level can characters use divinations to scry out remote locations?
- At what level can characters negate the effects of ability damage, at what ability drain, at what energy drain? (At what level can PCs consider monsters and NPCs as serious, lasting threat, and at what level do they just become a short-term nuisance?)
- At what level can characters kill people with a single spell with a failed save (any new game ability that affects saves positively or negatively should consider its impact on that level. I'd say that the 3.0 Spell Focus /Greater Spell Focus would not be broken with Fireball, but it might be with Phantasmal Killer or Disintegrate)

It's not always necessary to just say "no, never will we allow a particular effect", but it might be necessary to say when it is allowed, and how it interacts with others to ensure it's not "broken".