Prone=Flatfooted?

[Tyrloch]

My basic query is: can you do Sneak Attack damage to an enemy that is prone? The book states that a prone creature takes a -4 penalty to AC while prone -- since lying down wouldn't affect armor's ability to protect you, then this has to be some sort of penalty to your ability to dodge blows, i.e., a Dex penalty, right? What I'm trying to do is build a character who will use a trip attack to get an enemy prone, and then Sneak Attack him with his extra d6's while he's down. Am I headed in the right direction, or am I twisting rules?

~Jace

 

[Jeff Wilder]

No.


Jeff

 

[fishhead]

an ac or dexterity penalty doesnt count as flat-footed... see page 151 of the phb

 

[Tyrloch]

Yeah, but aren't you allowed to Sneak Attack an opponent that is either flat-footed, OR has lost his Dex bonus to AC, whether he has one or not?

 

[fishhead]

yeah but losing dexterity bonus is something different than a dexterity penalty

 

[Herzog]

since lying down wouldn't affect armor's ability to protect you, then this has to be some sort of penalty to your ability to dodge blows, i.e., a Dex penalty, right?

No. the AC penalty is unnamed.

You could see it as an AC penalty caused by the creature providing a larger target, but then someone would step in and suggest it is a size penalty. Which it is not.

furthermore, losing your dexterity bonus to AC is a very specific situation. It is a situation that MIGHT influence your AC (if you have a dex bonus), but your AC might be unaffected if you have a dex penalty instead.
It is also a situation in which you are subject to Sneak Attacks.

Note that losing dexterity (by penalty or damage or drain) will also reduce your AC, but is NOT considered 'loosing your dexterity bonus to AC', and thus does NOT make you subject to Sneak Attacks.

 

[irdeggman]

What the others are saying.

Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Note that your Dex mod to Reflex saving throws (osr skill checks) is not affected and you get an AC bonus against ranged attacks.

The key is not whether or not the opponent is flat-footed or not but whether they are denied the Dex Bonus to AC.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

When prone you are not denied your Dex bonus to AC. If you have a +5 due to Dex and are prone you still have a net of +1 to AC (plus anything from other sources, armor, dodge, etc)

 

[Tyrloch]

I just went back through the PHB and found a couple of interesting things: Under the Rogue entry it states that you get to use you SA damage any time that an opponent cannot effectively defend himself from your attack (I think lying Prone with a -4 to your AC fits this criteria). It also states that the Rogue's SA deals extra damage any time your target would be denied "A" Dex bonus (it doesn't specify that the opponent needs to be denied it's ENTIRE Dex bonus). And under Helpless Defenders, it states that the Rogue may use his SA damage, and they take a -4 penalty to AC. And then under Feint, you get to use your SA when all you're doing is misleading an opponent to he can't effectively dodge your next blow. So my reasoning is this: how can you SA someone in a Flank or after a Feint when the opponent is still on his feet, but you cannot when they are lying flat on the ground? I think that this condition would fit the "cannot effectively defend himself" scenario...before anyone makes a snap judgement on this, remember that nowhere in the PHB does it actually state that you CANNOT Sneak Attack a prone opponent -- I believe that it's up to interpretation, and I make a compelling argument...

~Jace

 

[Abciximab]

Prone isn’t helpless. You aren’t denied “A” dex bonus when you are prone.

SRD-

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

remember that nowhere in the PHB does it actually state that you CANNOT Sneak Attack a prone opponent

There are a lot of things that aren’t expressly ruled out for sneak attack (He’s flying? I sneak attack because it doesn’t state anywhere that I can’t), the Rogue entry states the conditions under which you can sneak attack.

In a flank you are defending yourself against multiple opponents, dividing your attention and it is expressly stated as one of the conditions (other than being denied your dex bonus) when you can sneak attack.

Bluff is a combat tactic to help you gain your sneak attack bonus (again expressly spelled out in the rules).

While I am not convinced it would not be an unreasonable house rule.

 

[green slime]

Most emphatically "No!"