(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[Rystil Arden]

I still say that the circumstances under which you can break this class will be hard to come by. I know that's not a very good argument, but it's really the only one I can offer.

It is possibly rare, and in a normal game it would be up to the GM to make sure it can't happen, but I still contend that it is a serious problem for LEW because a poor hapless GM can run across a character who already meets the circumstances thanks to the mistakes of another GM. One possible thing to think about is loosening some of the newer restrictions you added in exchange for the new restriction that learned powers reset between adventures. I know that this isn't the most fun thing to do, but it eliminates my majour problem with this class.

 

[GnomeWorks]

One possible thing to think about is loosening some of the newer restrictions you added in exchange for the new restriction that learned powers reset between adventures. I know that this isn't the most fun thing to do, but it eliminates my majour problem with this class.

...do what?

You mean the learner loses all the abilities they learn inbetween adventures? That they start over with nothing learned each time they head out?

I think that makes the class completely unplayable. It'd be comparable to playing a wizard who starts out each adventure knowing no spells, and having to learn them for each adventure. It's just not feasible.

 

[Rystil Arden]

...do what?

You mean the learner loses all the abilities they learn inbetween adventures? That they start over with nothing learned each time they head out?

I think that makes the class completely unplayable. It'd be comparable to playing a wizard who starts out each adventure knowing no spells, and having to learn them for each adventure. It's just not feasible.

Maybe so, but your guarantee that a only a few circumstances can cause the class to become rampantly overpowered is little comfort to the GM who has no control over that set of circumstances. An alternative is perhaps to write out a list of approved SQs and SAs that the Learner can learn, instead of saying that anything goes.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Maybe so, but your guarantee that a only a few circumstances can cause the class to become rampantly overpowered is little comfort to the GM who has no control over that set of circumstances. An alternative is perhaps to write out a list of approved SQs and SAs that the Learner can learn, instead of saying that anything goes.

I think it would probably work the other way around, doing a list of things the learner can't learn.

Even so, I don't know if I like the idea of arbitrarily saying the learner can't learn certain abilities.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think it would probably work the other way around, doing a list of things the learner can't learn.

Even so, I don't know if I like the idea of arbitrarily saying the learner can't learn certain abilities.

Well, one way to make it non-arbitrary is to simply eliminate SQs altogether. I mean, the thing about monster abilities is that they are not at all balanced assuming PCs can pick them up haphazardly, and different designers are liable to give monsters varying abilities to make an interesting opponent that could be wholly inappropriate for players, so really, you're asking for trouble by allowing any monster ability with no limit. It also means that every time a GM proposes a new monster, they will have to be careful with Learner in mind, which makes that more of a headache, etc. The idea of limiting abilities may not sit well with you, but the idea of allowing all the abilities does not sit well with me, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here

 

[GnomeWorks]

If the learner was prohibited from learning Quickness, would there be any other problems?

RA, you worry about DR. However, keep in mind that several classes offer DR X/-, as do some items. Gaining DR/epic or DR/good is "just as bad" as these, with the caveat that /epic and /good can theoretically be overcome.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If the learner was prohibited from learning Quickness, would there be any other problems?

RA, you worry about DR. However, keep in mind that several classes offer DR X/-, as do some items. Gaining DR/epic or DR/good is "just as bad" as these, with the caveat that /epic and /good can theoretically be overcome.

But the classes and items give reasonably low values for DR/-, as compared to the DRs around 15 that the learner would be able to achieve and that are effectively -.

One of the hidden problems that I think I mentioned before, however, is that the existence of a class that lets you use monster abilities causes a chain-reaction that complicates the allowability of custom monsters--

This came up in my discussion about GM power vs LEW restrictions, and I was basically told that making my own new magic spells and items in an adventure was a no-no because the PCs could get their hands on them, but I could use new monsters with strange abilities as I please since the implications of their abilities can safely be ignored in other aspects of LEW. And the ability to put in at least some of my own stuff makes me happy. If you add in the Learner class, then suddenly I can't put in custom monsters because the Learner can gain their powers.

Oh, I also just found an ability that would be really weird if a Learner took it: The Barghest's Feed ability

 

[Velmont]

Oh, I also just found an ability that would be really weird if a Learner took it: The Barghest's Feed ability

Wow... I just read that power. I must tell some powers can be troublesome if a player gain it. There is so much monsters, and some monsters can be created also. It could become an headache for a master to have to handle a learner in his group.

I like the look and feel of that class, but it could be too easily abused and can become a nightmare to handle. At least, ti is my first impression of the class (well, my second, I forgot my first, that class have been waiting for approval for so long )

 

[Rystil Arden]

I like the look and feel of that class, but it could be too easily abused and can become a nightmare to handle.

This is exactly my opinion is well. That's why I think that the best fix (though I know Gnomeworks doesn't like it) is to create a full list of learnable powers, perhaps with associated level requirements, to mimic the spell list of other classes. In exchange for that balancing factor, the Learner could be allowed to get a significant boost to duration of the SQs.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Well, I should probably include notes on abilities that improve the creature's HD and whatnot. That way things like Feed aren't broken...

Anyway. Regarding the idea of having level restrictions - we've tried using that idea several times in the past, and it just doesn't seem to work. For one, new monsters will cause more work than they were intended to, because someone has to figure out level equivalencies for the creature's abilities (unless the creator does that, and they're supposed to anyway).

The list does exist already - it was written awhile ago. It is only lacking the true dragons (which are a major part of the learner, IMO), but once they're done, the entirety of the SRD is included in the list. Each ability has a spell level equivalency listed.

However, I have no interest in this class returning to a spellcasting form. The talent idea works, and I think we should stick with it.

Ergo, the spell level equivalency listed in the file would be the required level of the learner in order to learn the ability. Normally I'd say they'd start with 0-level and get 9th-level at 10th, but as there is only one 0-level talent, that'd be difficult.

The entire 0-level and 1st-level list looks like this...
Madness - Allip
Wisdom Drain - Allip
Entangle - Assassin Vine
Resist Ranged Attacks - Displacer Beast
Whirlwind - Air Elemental, Small
Vortex - Water Elemental, Small
Detect Magic - Ethereal Filcher
Corrupting Touch - Ghost
Ground Manipulation - Gibbering Mouther
Fiery Bite - Hell Hound
Speak with Animals - Leonal
Flaming Hooves - Nightmare
Smoke - Nightmare
Charm Person - Nixie (Sprite)
Unnatural Aura - Wraith

Just for reference, Quickness is a 6th-level talent.

Is this more acceptable?