Proposal: Retraining for New Material

[nerdytenor]

I'm also in favor of lax retraining rules, FWIW, for two simple reasons:

1) It's more fun for people who want to make changes
2) It doesn't hurt anybody else, as far as I can see

 

[KenHood]

Looks like we have consensus on more lax re-training rules.

I second this proposal by JoeNotCharles...

1. On levelling up, you may retrain as many skills, feats and powers as you want, as long as all the replacements except for at most one are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.

2. On levelling up, you may change your choices of class features, as long as the replacement features are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.

3. Once, before you are approved for second level, you may submit a new character sheet with the same XP as your original character, and call it the same character, retconning it so that "they've always been like this". This requires the permission of the DM and judge of any adventure you're on at the time.

Could we please vote on this because...*cough*...I've got a character that just leveled-up and I want to take advantage of the re-training proposal?

 

[Lord Sessadore]

1. On levelling up, you may retrain as many skills, feats and powers as you want, as long as all the replacements except for at most one are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.
2. On levelling up, you may change your choices of class features, as long as the replacement features are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.
3. Once, before you are approved for second level, you may submit a new character sheet with the same XP as your original character, and call it the same character, retconning it so that "they've always been like this". This requires the permission of the DM and judge of any adventure you're on at the time.

I think I like this - it seems pretty solid, allows for flexibility but has reasonable constraints.

The biggest problem I see with allowing flexible retraining is if people use it to completely change character concepts, and generally abusing these rules to min/max. I think it's important to make a very clear and obvious note that the intent of these rules is not to optimize your character beyond recognition - it's to make the stats of your character align more closely with your concept of the character, by using options which did not exist (in L4W) when they were created - and that abuse can and likely will be dealt with appropriately. I don't count it as character continuity when everything about the character but the name and XP are different, for example

Now, I probably sound a bit like a wet blanket in that there paragraph. I totally understand what's being talked about, and why people want it, and I would like to see something like this for people who need it. I'm sure that all of you have the best intentions at heart, so it shouldn't be a problem. But the potential is there, and I would prefer that we have some way to stop/prevent it.

I think that with retraining of any significant scope, especially when it isn't at a level-up, should have to be OK-ed by the judges, and their DM if they're in an adventure. It does put a bit more strain on the judges, but it shouldn't be too much. It doesn't have to be a full CS with stats and everything, just the names of what's being swapped with what. Thoughts on that?

 

[KenHood]

I don't count it as character continuity when everything about the character but the name and XP are different, for example

I agree.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I don't count it as character continuity when everything about the character but the name and XP are different, for example

That's the main reason I wanted to limit the "total rewrite" option to level 1. I'm not too worried about new sources because there's a finite number of them, so it's not like you can keep flipping every month when more new powers are approved.

As for min-maxing, it's not easy to separate a min-maxer from, "Ooh, it's only tangentially related to my concept, but that new power sounds like fun: I want to try it!" Which I don't want to discourage. Dealing with a min-maxer who retrains to new powers is pretty much like dealing with a min-maxer who starts out that ways: wait until they disrupt a game and deal with them there.

 

[CaBaNa]

Here Here to all, this seems like an almost unanimous action for Lax Retrain...

 

[garyh]

I'd say you can't completely rewrite a character after hitting level 2 - if your dissatisfied with your build, you should know by that point.

Here's what I propose, replacing the normal retraining rules:

I definitely like 1 and 2, and I think I've mentioned them before myself. I'm a little concerned about 3, but there are some good arguments for it later in the thread.

How does this whole proposal thing work? How long do we wait before folks approve it--or whatever happens with these things?

Community discusses things, then when they're ready, the Judges vote. If enough Judges go one way or the other, it's then approved 48 hours after the final necessary Judge vote. The charter has the full rules.

I think I like this - it seems pretty solid, allows for flexibility but has reasonable constraints.

The biggest problem I see with allowing flexible retraining is if people use it to completely change character concepts, and generally abusing these rules to min/max. I think it's important to make a very clear and obvious note that the intent of these rules is not to optimize your character beyond recognition - it's to make the stats of your character align more closely with your concept of the character, by using options which did not exist (in L4W) when they were created - and that abuse can and likely will be dealt with appropriately. I don't count it as character continuity when everything about the character but the name and XP are different, for example

Now, I probably sound a bit like a wet blanket in that there paragraph. I totally understand what's being talked about, and why people want it, and I would like to see something like this for people who need it. I'm sure that all of you have the best intentions at heart, so it shouldn't be a problem. But the potential is there, and I would prefer that we have some way to stop/prevent it.

I think that with retraining of any significant scope, especially when it isn't at a level-up, should have to be OK-ed by the judges, and their DM if they're in an adventure. It does put a bit more strain on the judges, but it shouldn't be too much. It doesn't have to be a full CS with stats and everything, just the names of what's being swapped with what. Thoughts on that?

LS pretty much nails my sentiments. One thought I had to prevent rebuilds outside the spirit of the rules would be that such an approval would need some sort of additional review. Maybe three reviews instead of two, or a majority of sitting Judges voting that the concept of the rebuild is okay (mechanics then being reviewed by two Judges/Character Reviewers as normal). Just tossing ideas out there.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

LS pretty much nails my sentiments. One thought I had to prevent rebuilds outside the spirit of the rules would be that such an approval would need some sort of additional review. Maybe three reviews instead of two, or a majority of sitting Judges voting that the concept of the rebuild is okay (mechanics then being reviewed by two Judges/Character Reviewers as normal). Just tossing ideas out there.

I like the majority of sitting Judges vote idea. That should effectively eliminate that angle of abuse, and shouldn't require too much effort on the part of the judges. I imagine it would slow things less than requiring 3 approvals, and it reduces confusion by being a separate element in the approval process than getting mechanics approved.

 

[renau1g]

Sounds good, I was stupid and took Skill Focus Bluff... I really thought my +14 modifier would come in handy...not so far.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Sounds good, I was stupid and took Skill Focus Bluff... I really thought my +14 modifier would come in handy...not so far.

Well, you're just unlucky enough to be in an adventure without a lot of social interaction... If you were in Closed Eye you'd be getting tons of use out of that! (Don't forget you can use Bluff to get combat advantage - too lazy to look up the full rules now - although that's not as important for a warlock as for a rogue.)