Proposal: Retraining for New Material

[covaithe]

I've been having trouble finding time to reply to this thread, which is a shame, because it really deserves attention.

I'm quite happy about the idea of a one-time complete overhaul before you're approved for level 2. As long as your name, race, class, and general backstory remain the same, I don't really see the need for any extra judge involvement. You'd need DM approval to do it during an adventure, of course.

For retraining new rules elements... I'd kind of prefer it if retraining were spread out a bit over a few levels. Maybe something like,

• you may retrain class features if the new feature you're taking was not approved at your last level up, and
• you may one additional power or feat at each level increase (beyond what you normally can from the PHB default rules), as long as the new feat or power was not approved at the time your character was approved with the old feat or power.

That way, when AP comes out and your wizard levels up, you can get swap out two powers and two feats. In another level he can swap another two powers/feats, and between those two levels he'll have gotten at least one new power. So that's 5 new powers over, say, six months to a year's time. It smooths the character's transformation out in time, but still allows a fairly radical transformation in a non-ridiculous time frame.

Thoughts?

 

[Atanatotatos]

Sounds good!

 

[ukingsken]

I dont know which I like better. On the one hand the complete overhaul/lax retrain idea is great. It lets people align their characters (in theory) more closely with what was intended, and it allows new players to change frustrations caused by uninformed decisions or in the case of cross decisions made to balance things. I think this way would help draw people in who might otherwise feel frustrated by their characters and are contemplating leaving our community. But as mentioned it does have potential abuse written all over it.

Your more relaxed way is also good vaithe, but I worry that even 6 months would seem like a long time if you were the one sitting there hating on your own character.

I think the first option is better with some minor monitoring and adjudication really. It focuses more on keeping us as players happy with the community without being too broken.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I have to say, uking, that while your point does have merit, it also involves those "monitoring and adjudications"; it is true that the community is made for the players, but it also made of judges, who already have their fair share of work. We shouldn't make it too hard for them.

 

[covaithe]

I should also point out that if you really hate your character and want a complete overhaul and just can't wait, there's always the option of retirement and creating a completely new character at the same level.

I just want to avoid the situation where when AP comes out, and wizards suddenly turn around with a completely new spellbook overnight. DP comes out, and clerics are unrecognizable, etc.

 

[ukingsken]

Yeah your right, I almost forgot about retirement for a char of same level. Kind of seems to be some overlap there. So I retract my earlier opinion and now agree with Vaithe... I agree with him a lot lol

 

[JoeNotCharles]

"I am now playing my character's identical twin brother, also named Xorn."

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I've been having trouble finding time to reply to this thread, which is a shame, because it really deserves attention.

I'm quite happy about the idea of a one-time complete overhaul before you're approved for level 2. As long as your name, race, class, and general backstory remain the same, I don't really see the need for any extra judge involvement. You'd need DM approval to do it during an adventure, of course.

For retraining new rules elements... I'd kind of prefer it if retraining were spread out a bit over a few levels. Maybe something like,

• you may retrain class features if the new feature you're taking was not approved at your last level up, and
• you may one additional power or feat at each level increase (beyond what you normally can from the PHB default rules), as long as the new feat or power was not approved at the time your character was approved with the old feat or power.

That way, when AP comes out and your wizard levels up, you can get swap out two powers and two feats. In another level he can swap another two powers/feats, and between those two levels he'll have gotten at least one new power. So that's 5 new powers over, say, six months to a year's time. It smooths the character's transformation out in time, but still allows a fairly radical transformation in a non-ridiculous time frame.

Thoughts?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you mean with regards to the overhaul bit. You're saying that as long as all you're changing are powers, feats, and skills, you don't see the need for extra judge involvement, correct?

For overhauls where the character would change class (say, fighter/wizard to swordmage) or do some other far-reaching change, are you open to that? And do you think there should be extra judge involvement? I think there should be some judge involvement with larger changes like that, and I'm open to that, myself. As long as the changes fit the character, I think it's fine.

I like covaithe's method for the 'normal' retraining. Two power retrains and two feat retrains per level for new content is good. It will need a little rewording though; the normal retraining rules say you can retrain only one power, feat, or skill (so if you retrain a feat, you can't retrain a power or a skill that level).

In response to Joe, I think we would prefer that a new character replacing a retired one would be a little more dissimilar to the original

In other news, this is my 1000th post! Yay for quadruple digits

 

[covaithe]

Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you mean with regards to the overhaul bit. You're saying that as long as all you're changing are powers, feats, and skills, you don't see the need for extra judge involvement, correct?

For overhauls where the character would change class (say, fighter/wizard to swordmage) or do some other far-reaching change, are you open to that? And do you think there should be extra judge involvement? I think there should be some judge involvement with larger changes like that, and I'm open to that, myself. As long as the changes fit the character, I think it's fine.

Mmm, no, I wasn't thinking of changing your whole character class. Maybe I'm being unimaginitive, but it seems to me that a different class is sufficiently discontinuous that it's a different character entirely, and you should use the retirement option.

What I'm suggesting is that there be the following five ways available to go about changing your character. In increasing order of invasiveness / decreasing order of continuity:

1. On a level up, retrain one power, feat, and trained skill, as in the PHB.
2. As option 1, except that you can retrain one additional power and feat as long as the new feat was not approved at the time you were approved with the old power/feat.
3. As option 1 or 2, but you can also retrain one class feature choice, so long as the new choice was not approved at the time of your last level up. (Example: losing Brutal Rogue for Acrobatic Rogue)
4. Once, before the character is approved for level 2, you can completely change class features, powers, feats, trained skills, equipment purchased... Anything except race, class, and general character background. (I imagine minor changes would be allowed to match the new features, but it should be recognizably the same character.) This doesn't need to be done at a level up, but does require the permission of your DM, if you want to do it during an adventure.
5. Retirement, and creating a completely new character as outlined in the charter. This is the only way to get a new class or race.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Ok, that sounds pretty good. I'll point out again, though, that the PHB retraining only allows you to retrain one power, OR one feat, OR one skill. Basically, you get to retrain one thing total, instead of up to three things.

That said, I think with the slow nature of PbP that we could change it to allowing one change in each of the three categories every level.

For #4, would you say that has to get a nod of approval from the judges, or can people just go ahead with it?

I think changing classes would be OK, but only in rare cases where the new class exactly fits the kind of character the player was trying to create earlier, probably through multiclassing. In any case, if class changes were allowed, I think it would need special judge approval, and only be allowed very, very rarely.