Q about massive con damage.

[MeanGenes]

Hi,
A question arose in our gaming group today about constitution and HP damage. I will outline the situation as follows:

Crae'ar, 5th level Human Wizard. He has a 15 constitution (+2 con bonus) and 30 maximum HP. He was struck for 16 points of damage earlier today, leaving him with 14 HP. Later on in the day, due to a brutally bad fortitude saving throw and excellent rolling by the DM, he took 13 points of constitution damage, bringing him to a constitution of 2 (-4 con penalty).

The question is, what are his current HP?

According to the SRD:
If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution
modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

Answer 1:
Crae'ar now has 5 HP. Constitution loss can never reduce HP below 1 hit point/die.

Answer 2:
Crae'ar now has -11 HP. Constitution loss sets his maximum HP to 5. He has 16 HP in wounds which carry over and reduce his HP to -11.

Answer 3:
Crae'ar now has -16 HP. He loses 1 HP*con modifer loss*level = 1*6*5 = 30. 14-30 = -16.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Answer 2:
Crae'ar now has -11 HP. Constitution loss sets his maximum HP to 5. He has 16 HP in wounds which carry over and reduce his HP to -11.

That one.

Crae'ar's dead, baby. Crae'ar's dead.

-Hyp.

 

[youspoonybard]

Option 2 looks right to me. (Whoops, forgot that he actually hit his minimum. Thanks, Smurf.).

As I've said, fear con damage. Poor guy.

Fear the Level 3 Druid spell Poison fort save as well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My preference is to have everyone keep a record of the hit points gained with each hit die, because strictly speaking, it's the more accurate way of figuring it out.

I'm going to ignore the "Max HP at 1st level" rule for simplicity.

I have two 2nd level Wizards.

Wally rolls a 1 and a 4 for hit points.
Warren rolls a 2 and a 3.

If they both had Con 10:

Willy's HP = 1+0=1, plus 4+0=4, for a total of 5.
Warren's HP = 2+0=2, plus 3+0 = 3, for a total of 5.

If they both had Con 8:

Willy's HP = 1-1=0... but you can never gain less than 1 hit point with a new hit die, so 1-1=1, plus 4-1 = 3, for a total of 4.
Warren's HP = 2-1=1, plus 3-1=2, for a total of 3.

The whole point of the retroactive Con modifiers is that someone with their Con drained to 6 should have exactly the same max hit points as if they'd gone through since 1st level with a Con of 6.

But by the rules, if Con 10 Willy and Warren have their Con drained to 8, they both drop their max from 5 to 3. But we've just seen that Willy's Max HP with Con 8 should be 4.

If someone's kept track of their individual hit die rolls, I'll let them figure out their new max based on those rolls. If they haven't bothered, then they just lose one point per die.

The official rule is simple... but it's also simplistic.

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Q about massive con damage.

That one.

AFAIK, its answer 1. Since Constitution loss can't reduce your hit points below 1 hit point per hit die, he could have 1 hit point left, lose 20 Con points, and still have 1 hit point. The minimum is 1 hit point per hit die, which would be 5 for the example above. Con damage drops your _maximum_ hit points, not your current (unless your current would be greater than your max).

 

[Darklone]

I disagree, kreynolds. You have to keep track of your lost hitpoints (wounds) to get it right.

He lost 16 hitpoints. He lost con, leaving him at 1 hp/level, e.g. 5 hitpoints... The 16 points of damage kill him.

Sad but true.

I'm going to prepare Empowered Poison again
Fear my dragonkilling druid!

 

[kreynolds]

He lost 16 hitpoints. He lost con, leaving him at 1 hp/level, e.g. 5 hitpoints... The 16 points of damage kill him.

I'm not convinced. I don't see any text that eludes to such a thing. 3.5 DMG, page 290, Ability Score Loss, note the text (in red) which is different from the 3.0 DMG...

"A hit point score can't be reduced by Consitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. At 7th level, Mialee has 22 hit points when fully healed. Even if her Consititution score drops to 5 or lower, she will still have at least 7 hit points (less any damage she may take).

 

[The Souljourner]

kreynolds, I think you answered your own question... if mialee in this situation had taken 17 damage, then had her con reduced to 5, she would have 7 hitpoints, less the damage she had taken (17) which is -10, and death.

-The Souljourner

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds, I think you answered your own question... if mialee in this situation had taken 17 damage, then had her con reduced to 5, she would have 7 hitpoints, less the damage she had taken (17) which is -10, and death.

No, I didn't. The 3.0 DMG states "damage she's taken". The 3.5 DMG states "damage she may take". There's a big difference. If you're saying that her con is reduced and she takes enough damage later on to reduce her hit points below 0, then I agree. If you're saying Con damage alone is enough to reduce her hit points below 0, then I disagree.

The 3.0 DMG implies that damage already taken is taken into account when your Con is reduced.

The 3.5 DMG in no way implies this, as it refers to any damage you take in future tense.

 

[dcollins]

Working from the 3.0 rule, I agree that "Answer #2" is correct. Note that the paragraph in 3.0 also starts with the distinction of "A full hit point score..." which is not what was quoted from 3.5 above.