Question about Treasure

[Loghren]

Is it time to bring up Schrödinger?

So long as you don't harm any cats . . . .

 

[2eBladeSinger]

How do you figure? That encounter never happened, so they don't get the experience for it, so they have a different encounter with an appropriate treasure instead on the way to the next level. It's not like they can skip that encounter and still level up at the same point - they'll need another encounter to take up the XP slack. If you're pacing your experience and treasure roughly in parallel, then skipped/taken "extra" encounters shouldn't ever cause a discrepancy between level and loot.

In answer to the OP - This.

As long as each optional encounter has it's own proportionate parcel, then the PCs will be perfectly experience to treasure balanced. (i.e. no experience, no treasure. If experience then treasure)

On a related note; it would bother me to know that a DM was intentionally floating treasure around making sure that, as a PC, I found it without risk of failure or success of brilliance. Knowing that I succeed to a set level no matter what I do makes the game less interesting.

 

[Marco]

Note that not every encounter will have treasure--but I wanted to put something in the bottom of the giant-rat-maze in case they went down there. Some kind of reward for going "off the beaten path"--and, yes, this will give more Xp than the "beaten path" would suggest--but that's okay. It's more the *treasure* that's the issue.

I can't just "stock the dungeon" with some gold, a few magic items, and go with that: it seems, by the rules, I need to manage parcels for optional encounters ...

-Marco

 

[bert1000]

For starters - and this is by no means a certainty, but it appears to be the case - treasure isn't anywhere near as unbalancing QUOTE]

I really hope this is true. Hopefully you can give say 15-20% less or more treasure than the listed amounts without hurting or helping party effectiveness dramatically.

The default system in the DMG seems to be the self-correcting system most of us use (e.g., if the party doesn't find the treasure behind the secret door, you just give them more later to bring them back to a steady state)

Sometimes, however, it is nice to have some lasting consequences for things other than combat -- finding the secret door, beating the skill challenge, etc.

If each individual treasure has less impact, then a DM can afford to occasionally have an item that is black and white -- either given out or not. If the party gets it, great, it's a little bonus that makes enounters a little easier.

 

[Blackeagle]

It's still not clear to me if I already have a full L1 parcel for the "main quest" if optional side-adventures should have treasure above that.

Yes they should. If your characters go on the side adventures they'll earn extra XP and are going to be more than first level by the end of the adventure. This means they should have more than 1st level treasure. If going through the main quest and all the side quests will net them 1.5 levels of XP, it should net them 1.5 levels of treasure.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

I can't just "stock the dungeon" with some gold, a few magic items, and go with that: it seems, by the rules, I need to manage parcels for optional encounters ...

Yes you can. Let's say your adventure is worth 1000xp per player and you have perfectly balanced level 1 treasure throughout divided into 8 parcels.

Now, your players decide to option the rat maze portion of the adventure, killing an extra 500xp each, putting them at 150% of expected experience once the adventure plus optional portion is done. They also earn, in the maze, an extra 50% treasure, putting them at 150% of experience and 150% of treasure - balanced, they're simply moving along faster than expected. (I wish I had the books to give you a precise example)

As long as you balance expected treasure vs. expected experience you will be fine - or were there no monsters in the optional portion of the adventure?

 

[Marco]

In answer to the OP - This.

As long as each optional encounter has it's own proportionate parcel, then the PCs will be perfectly experience to treasure balanced. (i.e. no experience, no treasure. If experience then treasure)

On a related note; it would bother me to know that a DM was intentionally floating treasure around making sure that, as a PC, I found it without risk of failure or success of brilliance. Knowing that I succeed to a set level no matter what I do makes the game less interesting.

Maybe I'm burnt out from a long day at work--but I don't get how this solves my problem.

I have 5 "planned" encounters that will get them to 2nd level laid out (the quest they go on from my starting scenario).

I have 4 "optional encounters" out there on the map. If they go to those locations and poke around, they'll find small dungeons with monsters in them.

If they, for example, come back to town before completing the "quest" (very possible) and poke around adventuring (very possible) then if the go back on the quest then I have to move treasure around, it seems.

-Marco

 

[bert1000]

On a related note; it would bother me to know that a DM was intentionally floating treasure around making sure that, as a PC, I found it without risk of failure or success of brilliance. Knowing that I succeed to a set level no matter what I do makes the game less interesting.

And this is the great illusion of DMing. IMO, a good DM has to do just that in many places of the game, while at the same time not giving any signs he/she is doing it.

It doesn't have to be treasure, but if it isn't treasure it's usually something else. Say the players don't find any treasure for some reason from level 1-2? (using an extreme example). You planned a really tough level 2 encounter that assumed they got at least 90% of the treasure and will likely be a TPK now. Do you

1) run it as is and just hope they get really lucky? that's just the way it is since they didn't find the treasure

2) adjust the encounter so it is a tough fight, but not likely a TPK.

As long as the players don't know this is happening, 2) is likely to be a better session.

Now, I agree with you that it would be good to have some variation in treasure for a given level so hoping that 20% either way doesn't matter too much -- so some items can really be "rewards"

 

[Marco]

Yes you can. Let's say your adventure is worth 1000xp per player and you have perfectly balanced level 1 treasure throughout divided into 8 parcels.

Now, your players decide to option the rat maze portion of the adventure, killing an extra 500xp each, putting them at 150% of expected experience once the adventure plus optional portion is done. They also earn, in the maze, an extra 50% treasure, putting them at 150% of experience and 150% of treasure - balanced, they're simply moving along faster than expected. (I wish I had the books to give you a precise example)

As long as you balance expected treasure vs. expected experience you will be fine - or were there no monsters in the optional portion of the adventure?

Okay--so balance the extra treasure to the XP--that makes more sense. Do I keep it at 1st level or move up to 2nd?

Also: how exactly do I do that--my understanding is that the "parcel" for 1st level contains up to a 5th level magic item. Certainly I wouldn't put those in the optional encounters. Is there a "standard half"? Maybe the monetary portion but less magic?

Does the book address this?

-Marco

 

[bert1000]

Maybe I'm burnt out from a long day at work--but I don't get how this solves my problem.

I have 5 "planned" encounters that will get them to 2nd level laid out (the quest they go on from my starting scenario).

I have 4 "optional encounters" out there on the map. If they go to those locations and poke around, they'll find small dungeons with monsters in them.

If they, for example, come back to town before completing the "quest" (very possible) and poke around adventuring (very possible) then if the go back on the quest then I have to move treasure around, it seems.

-Marco

Once the players decide to do one of the "optional encounters", that encounter is no longer "optional" and now counts toward the xp and treasure totals for getting from level 1 to 2.

So, I would put in some treasure as you see fit and 2 things will likely happen if you want to keep exactly to outline in the dmg (which hopefully you can depart from a little and things still work anyway):

1) either you have to remove some level 1 parcels from other level 1 "main" encounters

2) some of your "main" encounters will actually become level 2 encounters and you can hand out level 2 parcels in those