[RANT]Are small races shafted?

[jontherev]

I'm concerned with the weapon selection mostly. Small pc's only have 4 non-exotic weapons (if you count unarmed) to weapon finesse, none of them slashing. Medium pc's get, let's see, THIRTEEN non-exotic weapons, PLUS the medium-sized rapier, PLUS the exotic LARGE spiked chain. What gives here? I think it would be balancing to allow the short sword to be WF'ed by small races.

Also, has there been a ruling on whether rogues get to use Kukris? Since they can use ANY dagger, and there are only two listed (dagger and punching dagger), the word ANY implies more than two to me. And since the kukri is a curved DAGGER, it sure seems like they should be proficient in its use. This would certainly help to balance the weapon proficiency problem between race sizes. Otherwise, small races MUST either use an exotic feat, monkey grip a rapier and take an additional -2 penalty (negating the benefit from finessing), OR take a level of monk if they wish to finesse anything other than a plain ole dagger. All poor choices imo.

Oh, and there's no way this was part of the balancing between the race sizes. Or, if it was, I take big issue with. After all, they already get grappled like it's going out of style. And apparently, they don't have as many weapons to choose from since they are smaller than humans. I'd like to hear/read some other opinions out there.

 

[Skaros]

Balance

Hi jontherev,

I don't think every feat should be equally useful to every race or size of person.

Small PC races (halfling and gnome) get quite a lot of benefits in their own right. +1 AC, skill modifiers, etc, and aren't really designed to be a min/maxer's dream for melee combat anyway.

-Skaros

 

[Tome]

Certainly small creatures are limited by their weapon selection, however they are balanced in other ways. I am currently playing a 2.5 foot tall forest gnome rogue. A friend of his commissioned a weaponsmith to create a custom battleaxe to fit his height and heft, and when he gets another feat he will either take battleaxe as a martial weapon prof. or multi class into fighter or ranger.

The final version of Master Tools PC generator will allow any weapon or aromr to be "scaled" for use by any size of creature. As part of the scaling damage dice and weight will also be modified. This means that my gnome rogue can use a small rapier with weapon finesse if he wants. Sure, it will do a little less damage than a medium sized rapier, but it still crits on an 18 before keen and Imp. Crit. The demo version of the program doesn't allow for size scaling, and the rules in the DMG are somewhat difficult to comprehend. Anything can be made larger or smaller. Giants don't always use clubs made out of tree trunks, sometimes they have axes or swords.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Well, if you really want to make a really powerful melle combatant, don't chose a small race because they are smaller and do less damage. Makes sense to me.

If you really want to make a good rogue, chose halfling. They get more than enough bonuses to make up for the lack of high-damage melee weapons.

Plus, there are core rules for sizing down weapons. Just discuss it with your DM.

--Small Spikey

 

[Darkness]

Also, has there been a ruling on whether rogues get to use Kukris?

Not mentioned - not even on the OA weapons list for rogues, I think...

 

[graydoom]

Small characters have both benefits and disadvantages. The complaint about weapons is not entirely valid, because weapons can all be scaled down to small size. If you choose a small character, you are going to do less raw damage... that's why you focus on sneak attack, attack spells, or just decide not to try to do damage!
Small characters did not get the screw, they just need to be used correctly. You can't expect to just make a small fighter and automatically have it deal as much as a big one. Make that small character a rogue (go sneak attack, easy to get into position with that hide bonus), a wizard (gnomish illusionist, for example... don't even focus on doing damage), or some other character type entirely.

That started rambling, so I'll just state the main point again: Small character's did not get the screw, you just have to use them correctly. And use the weapon scaling rules, wherever they are.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Small races are fabulous if you design your character concept properly.

But if you want to do heaps of damage you are pretty much forced to fight mounted or rely on sneak attack dice.

OTOH, smaller weapons only do ~2 average less, and your Str penalty costs you 1. So you are only doing ~3 HP less damage on average. At low levels that hurts. But at high levels where Half-Orcs are dishing out ~30 HP per swing, ~26 HP damage doesn't sound bad. At mid levels this is ~15% penalty in damage.

 

[Artoomis]

Re-Size

Let's say you are a halfling and you really, really want to wield a longsword one-handed.

No problem - get a sized-down longsword - it will only do d6 damage, but it will be slashing anmd not piercing like a short sword.

So your selections are not limited - but damage will be less.

What do you want with a small character? On the other hand, only a small character can be mounted inside a dungeon (on a riding dog).

So, choose wisely. Small characters have options.

 

[graydoom]

smaller weapons only do ~2 average less

Actually, smaller weapons only do an average of 1 less. Compare the shortword (1d6 damage) to the longsword (1d8 damage).
The average damage per successful shortsword hit is 3.5 ((min + max)/2); the average damage per successful longsword hit is 4.5.

and your Str penalty costs you 1

Actually, it costs you more than that. Because strength also affects the to hit roll, and a -1 reduction decreases your chance to hit by 5%, the strength penalty costs 5% of your damage for the reduced chance to hit, and then costs 1 damage for the penalty to damage.
For example, a character with 10 strength and a +0 AB who was wielding a longsword against an AC 11 creature would deal on average (.5 * 4.5) == 2.25 damage per attack (on average). A character with 8 strength and thus a -1 AB (and otherwise the same as before) would deal on average (.45 * (4.5-1)) == 1.575 damage per attack (on average). Now making this character small (it does give back the +1 AB, at least) and thus having him wield a shortsword, we deal (.5 * (3.5-1)) == 1.25 damage per attack (on average).
Of course, as you said, this stuff does tend to get balanced out at higher levels. Still, it is a much smarter thing to do for small characters to focus on something other than just brute damage... even something like damage through sneak attacks is better.

Anyone feel free to correct my math if I made a mistake somewhere.

 

[Moleculo]

I have a player (gnome bard) who chose to be a whip master so he could trip people. I dont think he realized just HOW big of a problem that is when his stregth is only like 11. oh well. The Character was so well designed except for that too heh. (David: "I try to trip the ettin!!!" Jake: "With modifiers the ettin rolled a 28, what did you roll?" Dave: "uhhh 3... d'oh!!")

jake