D&D 3E/3.5 Raw 3.5 sneak attack

[Nimloth]

Looking for RAW

3.5 rogue with darkvision, in complete darkness attacking an animal (say, a dire rat) with scent. Does the rogue get sneak attack or not?

Environmental darkness
Environment :: d20srd.org

Rogue/sneak attack
Rogue :: d20srd.org

Scent
Special Abilities :: d20srd.org

 

[Viandante]

I guess that the rogue can't make a sneak attack as he is spotted before he has the chance to attack.
Still, if the rat is clueless and doesn't expect the rogue to attack (...) the sneak attack would take place...but being an animal, I'd say he'd get pretty upset about someone approaching, falling in the "not taken by surprise and suspicious" category.

I wouldn't care about darkness as he has darkvision, so he can see in the dark (so he isn't blinded).


PS: Don't know if you are also looking for a way to go around this, but the Darkstalker feat in the Lords of Madness manual forces creatures with tremor / blind / scente sense (and the likes) to make a spot roll vs rogue's hide roll to spot the rogue. Very useful.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Yes. Scent allows the pinpointing of enemies (knowing what square they're in), but the rogue is still effectively invisible (i.e., has full concealment). Sneak attack applies.

 

[Viandante]

Yes. Scent allows the pinpointing of enemies (knowing what square they're in), but the rogue is still effectively invisible (i.e., has full concealment). Sneak attack applies.

Ok, I guess I didn't understand which was the real question, as I didn't take into account that isn't stated that the animal has darkvision.

This guy here is right: if the animal can't see in darkness, then he is screwed.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I guess I didn't understand which was the real question, as I didn't take into account that isn't stated that the animal has darkvision.

This guy here is right: if the animal can't see in darkness, then he is screwed.

Jeff's comparison to invisibility is a good one. Think of an invisible Rogue and someone with Blindsense (but not Blindsight). Blindsense would let the creature notice the square the invisible foe was in, but still can't see him and thus suffers the miss chance, is flatfooted, invisible attacker gets +2 to hit, and all of that...

Same deal with scent. You know what square the rogue's in, but if you can't see him, he's still getting to sneak attack you.

[sblock]Reminds me of a time my DM royally screwed up and had a party of PCs who almost all happened to have racial darkvision (draconic characters, it was the party's "theme") go explore a pitch dark cave. ...Populated with a bunch of creatures who happened to not actually have darkvision.
Single human PC: Can we get a light in here? I can't see a thing.
Rest of party: Neither can they, so shut up and stop complaining. *begin stabbing things*
[/sblock]

 

[Viandante]

Yup, I didn't think about the animal not having darkvision -_-'


[sblock]I love when the master forgets about something and the party just take advantage of this XD
It reminds of me of this one time my friend were playing and their DM wanted them to go retrieve a 5000gp treasure under water for an NPC who gave them potions for breathing underwater...whose selling value was more than the treasure itself. So they sold them and just ran away from the NPC [/sblock]

 

[Aluvial]

Looking for RAW

3.5 rogue with darkvision, in complete darkness attacking an animal (say, a dire rat) with scent. Does the rogue get sneak attack or not?

Environmental darkness Environment :: d20srd.org
Rogue/sneak attack Rogue :: d20srd.org
Scent Special Abilities :: d20srd.org

Since scent allows a creature to exactly pinpoint someone within 5', the rogue (who must have darkvision/blindsight) can only sneak attack with reach weapon, or ranged weapon.

Note that Blindsense will not work here, because as we all know, you cannot sneak attack a target that has concealment. Darkvision of course pierces the concealment of normal darkness (but not magical darkness or other effects that give concealment).

Aluvial

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since scent allows a creature to exactly pinpoint someone within 5', the rogue (who must have darkvision/blindsight) can only sneak attack with reach weapon, or ranged weapon.

I think you're either confused or wrong. Or both.

The Rogue can see just fine in the laid out scenario, if you thought otherwise. He does not need blindsight, he has darkvision. The rat has no concealment against him.

If you meant that the rat's senses negated the rogue's surprise, then you're incorrect. Just because you know what square a creature is in does not protect you from being flatfooted to its attacks if you still can't see him. The rogue does not need a reach weapon if the rat can merely sense his location but not see him.

 

[Dandu]

Does pinpoint mean that the rat knows the exact location of the rogue, or just his square?

 

[Aluvial]

I think you're either confused or wrong. Or both.

The Rogue can see just fine in the laid out scenario, if you thought otherwise. He does not need blindsight, he has darkvision. The rat has no concealment against him.

If you meant that the rat's senses negated the rogue's surprise, then you're incorrect. Just because you know what square a creature is in does not protect you from being flatfooted to its attacks if you still can't see him. The rogue does not need a reach weapon if the rat can merely sense his location but not see him.

I was implying that you needed blindsight or darkvision. In the scenario given he has darkvision, so their is no concealment. The reason you need a reach weapon or a ranged attack to get the sneak attack is that the rat has Scent.

Scent allows the creature to know the "presence" of the creatures that are within 30' (or 60' downwind), typically, and allows the creature to pinpoint the character when he is within 5'. Since most PC's are either Medium or Small, they will be "spotted" when they are within one square of the creature with scent. Therefore, you cannot approach[u/] and sneak attack a creature with Scent in the dark (w/ darkvision).

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

Obnoxious underlining is mine.

So the word "pinpoint" is the thing here. The rat knows the rogue is nearby... and smells the bugger, probably getting closer... at the last moment, the rogue moves within one square for the Sneak Attack and is caught by the scent of the rat! He can't sneak attack because essentially he's been caught and his position is pinpointed.

Now if you add any cover into the mix.... the rogue is hiding behind some cover... and the rat can smell him and is tracking... where is that tasty aftershave... rat waddles within 5' and the rogue let's loose with his ready action to hit the rat as it enters the threat range of the rogue. The rat can be subjected to sneak in this case, because he provoked the attack ENTERING the threat range of the rogue and is technically at the 5' border when attacked, just out of the rat's pinpointing capability.

In the OP case, the rogue is entering the domain of the rat... who pinpoints him, ruining the sneak attack. If the rogue had only brought along his ransuer... all this would be moot.

Aluvial