Reason for including Endurance instead of just Fortitude?

[Voadam]

I’ve been reading through the free quickstart rules and like a lot of it from what is there.

I like the consolidated skills but I’m puzzled why there is the new endurance skill when there is already a fortitude defense. It seems to handle things that would have been handled by a fortitude save in 3e.

Endurance
Make an Endurance check to stave off ill effects and to
push yourself beyond normal physical limits. You can hold
your breath for long periods of time, forestall the debilitating
effects of hunger and thirst, and swim or tread water
for extended periods.

Now being a player skill means the player will roll which feels more active than passively being effected or not by ill effects as happens with 4e fortitude. But they went to a lot of trouble to cut down the skill list from 3e and it seems odd to create a new skill entirely when it could be handled by an existing core mechanic for which tough characters should already be good at it and weak characters not as good at it.

Thoughts? Explanations? Anything I'm not seeing?

 

[hafrogman]

Well, there may be other reasons at work, too. But the first thing that springs to mind is that when you make all the defences static, it seems a bit odd for the desert to roll a heat attack against you. The main design goal seemed to be to reduce all resolutions to a single roll, and when possible to have that roll be by the player/active character.

No roll to see if you hit, then they roll to see if they saved. The static defences were to encourage that. But when you come down to endurance, you still want your players to feel. . . active. Like they are playing the game, rather than having the environment taking the actions, or passive attack vs. passive defence.

It's a real 18 fort attack out there today, Phil. If your con is low, better pack some sunscreen. Now back to Jim for the sports results.

 

[Stuntman]

The Fortitude defence is different than the Endurance skill. Defences and skills serve different purposes in D&D. Skill challenges and rolls are different than attacks. Feats you use to improve your ability to make a successful skill roll or challenge are different than those that improve your defences. There is no need to make the Fortitude defence the same as the Endurance skill.

 

[Stalker0]

They did want to make it active, though they really could have just rolled it into fort defense in my opinion. Endurance is one of the weaker skills imo, along with streetwise unless your a character that makes heavy use of it.

 

[fba827]

Another aspect to consider here is that Fort can be based on Str or Con. Where as Endurance is just Con... in fact, it is the only Con-based skill. Currently Con only affects very few things: hit points (which are important), healing surges per day, your Endurance skill, and your Fort defense if it is higher than your Str.

And, by being a skill, you have the choice of being trained in it (thus, a +5) to avoid environmental fatigue, etc. you don't have that option if it is just fort.

a slight tangent, there is some magic item (forget the name) that lets you use an Endurance check result in place of your Fort defense for an attack, essentially letting you make your Fort defense be more variable.


Having said all that, i have always been in favor of player active checks and monsters/environment are passive (thus static to hit rolls for monsters while players do 1d20+def) just because as a DM, I hate shifting between the organization to the dice mindsets, it breaks my train of thought. So if/when I do shift to players doing all rolls, then I would find endurance and fort checks to be errily similar (not counting skill training)

 

[Shin Okada]

They did want to make it active, though they really could have just rolled it into fort defense in my opinion. Endurance is one of the weaker skills imo, along with streetwise unless your a character that makes heavy use of it.

I actually see a lot of character trained in freedom mainly for 2 reasons.

1. Official adventures tend to use endurance skill for skill challenges when PCs have to go somewhere faster (or go through some rough terrain).

2. Martial Freedom feat.

 

[DracoSuave]

Endurance works into skill challenges well. Fortitude does not. It's pretty much that simple.

Oh yeah, and BRV.

 

[FurryFighter]

encounter: fighting enemies, all of the sudden, 8 feet of water pours in. make endurance check to stay afloat. fail = sink. make endurance check to hold breath. fail = take damage/drown. heavy armor obviously causes you a problem here.

Goblins steal food and water while you sleep: 3 days in cave. make endurance check. fail = ???

Awake for more than 24 hours. make endurance check.

Basically, endurance really encompasses a lot of constant activity and hazards to health, its just that perhaps people dont actually track these every day effects that go on?

 

[Garthanos]

CON for me is very much stamina... the other muscle type to the burst STR muscle... this makes Fortitude something different it is something which underlies the development of that great strength or awesome stamina... feats and classes and these other things make it diverge farther too.

That said...

I have my players using active defenses (Unearthed Arcana Rule)
instead of passive - so the reason for an endurance skill feels even more artificial the temptation to go further and say hey... initiative is just a reflex test and ... Will could have active uses too it too? couldn't it? For instance some of those Wizards and Divine arcane actions might be active use of Will.

Mechanically it would be a very different path ;-).

 

[frankthedm]

Thoughts? Explanations? Anything I'm not seeing?

Allowing the save bonus to be derived from one of two stats was a heretical crutch to allow better defenses for some classes. It would be a compounding of sins against the Holy 6 Ability Scores to allow skills to use one of two stats.