Redefining the Dungeon

[ArcaneSpringboard]

I cannot recommend this blogpost enough:

Reexamining the Dungeon

 

[Jhaelen]

Yep, quite an interesting article (and with encouraging comments to boot!). I vaguely remember a discussion on ENWorld about treating a dungeon as an encounter. This seems to be going in a similar direction.

One thing I've been experimenting with regarding extended rests in my games is treating overland travel as a single adventuring day:
A 'standard' extended rest does not reset healing surges or dailies. They're only regained after reaching their destination or after resting for 24 hours along the way. This is coupled with an extended skill challenge that determines the number and kind of encounters along the way.
This approach works best if there is also some time-pressure (or at least the illusion of time pressure!).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Funny, almost the minute I read the PHB sections on resting I saw how it would be better to consider short rest to be a dramatic pause of change of scene and an extended rest to be something like 'end of chapter'.

I've very much taken to dividing my adventures up into 'areas' and designing each area holistically. Some are single encounters, some are several minor or linked encounters. I've never really enforced an artificial "you must clear this area before you get to rest" RULE, but in general an area really SHOULD be a region that the PCs need to clear before they're likely to remain unmolested for 5 minutes. Really this can generally be accomplished by eying the setup in a realistic fashion. If there were a battle anywhere in your general vicinity you'd almost surely hear it. People/Monsters wander around or just happen to notice things.

 

[BobTheNob]

Very interesting article, and I totally agree with what he sais. I didnt want "arbitrary" rest points in my game, then I found myself implementing them, with harsher rules on HP recovery, and things got alot more interesting. What I do is different to what the article stated, but its still the same gist.

I do like that he emphasises the more natural flow of events rather than encounter>>encounter>>encounter. He does have a point...its a little "counterish" to what RPG's are meant to be about

 

[jbear]

Cool idea in theory. Coming up with challenging sections seems more ... challenging.

I think I would increase the encounter level to determine XP budget by +2 as a minimum. So getting into combat almost becomes undesireable and seriously dangerous (even if you momentarily overcome part of the section things are still tense because your resources have been seriously drained).

It's definitely food for thought.

 

[Festivus]

Reading the novel "Pool of Radiance" on my way into work this morning, the group has a sequence of encounters with gnolls that leads up to a big showdown... struck me as rather one flowing encounter through several "rooms" of the "dungeon". Same with the island and the tower, both felt like those would have been one encounter in a game.

 

[Korgoth]

Interesting that "player skill" (outside of tactical wargaming) could make a comeback. I can imagine 'sectors' where the correct strategic approach makes the sector pretty easy (you don't have to fight the monsters all at once), and ones where a significant misstep could be a total disaster.

 

[bert1000]

Great design points. Combining this approach, and getting rid of combat xp altogether would be a winner I think. Quest XP only is something I do most of the time in my home games, and it really opens up player creativity.

 

[The Human Target]

Very interesting.

- I think long forms dungeons haven't worked that well in the game ever where mechanics meet common sense. So we should either change the nature of the game or remove the concept of large Keep on Shadowfell "dungeons you have to sleep in."

- I don't think the game should be based around the dungeon. Basing around the encounter works great, we just need better rules for linking those encounter together into a logical and fun series. And make sure the mechanics can support long or short adventures equally.

- Maybe its just me, but there is no more emphasis on fighting in 4E then there has ever been in my games. The fights are just a lot more fun, so that if the rping/exploring/investigating is weak the players do want to hurry to the money shot. If anything I think its made me have to step up my DMing in 4E.

 

[Brys]

I like the general idea but I think it would work best when combined with other ideas for getting some of the mechanics out of the way. For example, getting daily powers back after a 6 hour rest almost forces a DM to put a bunch of encounters in one day. Wandering monsters while traveling are either obscenely difficult (if designed such that the PCs have to use all their dailies to survive) or laughably easy (if the PCs use their dailies "knowing" that nothing more is likely to attack them that day). I like the idea of limiting dailies based on level - you can use any daily power twice per level but only once per encounter.

Another option is that you get one daily power (and some surges) back per milestone you reach, with the restriction that you can't get the same daily back twice in a row. This method would have no mechanical benefits to an extended rest. Figuring out surges is a little more complicated because not everyone has the same amount so their "recharge" rate would vary from PC to PC.

Final thought from the article: Prince Humperdink was the bad guy...let the Ogre have him.