Redemption, the Force, and Morality [No Ep 7 Spoilers]

[WayneLigon]

There's also another thing to consider - it's pretty obvious that the Jedi, by the time of the prequels, are not what they were. A lot of knowledge has been lost, and now, very possibly, Yoda is the last Jedi who remembers the old ways. Palpatine has also had decades to work his magic on them as well, a word here, a word there, to young Jedi who then rise in the ranks to the position of trainer or master, letting his subtle poison spread further until it's so ingrained that nobody even notices, not even Yoda until it's too late and you get that whole sequence where the masters finally realize that 'their ability to use the Force has been diminished'. It seems very likely that Palpatine has planted those seeds over a long period of time, to weaken them greatly before the final reveal.

 

[Cor Azer]

There's also another thing to consider - it's pretty obvious that the Jedi, by the time of the prequels, are not what they were. A lot of knowledge has been lost, and now, very possibly, Yoda is the last Jedi who remembers the old ways. Palpatine has also had decades to work his magic on them as well, a word here, a word there, to young Jedi who then rise in the ranks to the position of trainer or master, letting his subtle poison spread further until it's so ingrained that nobody even notices, not even Yoda until it's too late and you get that whole sequence where the masters finally realize that 'their ability to use the Force has been diminished'. It seems very likely that Palpatine has planted those seeds over a long period of time, to weaken them greatly before the final reveal.

I like the idea that the Sith slowly tricked Jedi into suppressing their emotions, rather than dealing with them. The Sith might not know who would join the Jedi in emotional dire straits, but that somebody would is almost a given, and each one that does becomes either a potential Dark Side user, or reinforces 'emotions are bad, mmmkay!' to the rest of the Jedi. Win-win.

 

[Eltab]

Anakins downfall isn't so much that he was attached, but the manipulation of Sidius the lying and secrets, and the resentment, jealousy, etc that builds in him as a result of all that.

I did not need to be a Force adept to figure out what was inevitably going to happen, when Chancellor Palpatine and the Jedi Council BOTH asked Anakin to observe and report (read: spy) on the other. The inherent conflict of interests and clashing loyalties was neon-lit; when the two bodies came to cross-purposes - over anything - there would be no way for Anakin (who is no diplomat and cannot keep Padme linked at the elbow) to prevent somebody or other from disapproving of his actions. And one of Anakin's weaknesses is that he needs the approval of people who he thinks are greater than himself.

Of course as Anakin grows stronger in the Force, the list of people from whom he can get that approval shrinks dramatically. At one point he lashes out at Obi-Wan to Padme: "He's holding me back!" Actually Obi-Wan is afraid to teach his headstrong and overpowered pupil anything more, but cannot bring himself to go to the Council, admit failure, and ask for help. By this point, Anakin could only be Padawan to a Mace Windu or a Yoda (somebody who can pound him into the pavement without killing him in the process, and so earn his grudging respect) ... and the Council already committed itself to the assertion that Anakin ought not be trained in the first place. Eventually only Palpatine is left. <faint March="" Imperial="" of="" strains=""></faint>

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah. They're two different issues.

I said in the other thread that I didn't feel Anakin was redeemed. Throwing an old man down a well doesn't make up for any of the evil stuff he did. There's no action you can take which redeems you after you kill a room full of children. Plus whatever else he did in his 30 years of being Vader. You don't get to say "Sorry! My bad!" and it's all OK.

The force ghost thing, on the other hand, is a secret Qui Gonn learned and taught to Yoda, who taught it to Obi Wan. Nobody taught it to Anakin.

Even assuming he taught it to himself after seeing Obi Wan do it on the Death Star, he should be an old man, not Hayden Christenson. Or Obi Wan should be Ewan McGregor. I guess they get to choose their force ghost appearance, and Obi Wan likes the way he looks old better!

Unless redemption isn't a matter of weighing acts against each other, but a matter of belief and change in the heart of the redeemed. If Anakin truly came back to the light for good in that moment, he could have been redeemed. As for force ghost appearances, perhaps you can choose how you appear to others and Obi Wan chose to keep his aged appearance.

 

[tomBitonti]

The force ghost seems to imply redemption. I attribute the appearance of Anakin as a force ghost to a desire to insert a happy ending which is prevalent in American movies.

Appearing as the younger Anakin maybe ties to where Anakin lost himself to the emperor. Anakin starting his life journey again, albeit in a new realm.

There seems to have been a lot of good opportunities lost in the first episodes. I've always thought that the light side had lost its way, and the resurgence of the dark side was a consequence. Curious that Yoda warns against fear, but that seend to be a strong driver of the Jedi council.

Thx!
TomB l

 

[Maxperson]

I'm curious where the idea that being a force ghost is a taught technique came from? Did I miss it from Episodes I-III?

 

[Erekose]

From what I remember, in EPIII, Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he will teach him how to commune with Qui-Gon in his exile ...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have a hard time not reading Episode III as being about the redemption of Anakin and the filmmakers pretty much considering him redeemed. It is a film, it deals with morality fairly simply as a result and distills the redemptive journey into a very dramatic moment. For me that is enough. If it were real life though whether redemption is possible through a single act really depends on some fundamental assumptions. I suspect a lot of us disagree on those (i.e. who is judging the redeemed, toward what end, etc). Personally my bar for redemption would be higher than a single act in the final moments of your life. I think that choice is one that shouldn't be ignored, but I'd be reluctant to label the person redeemed if they had slaughtered children and helped an evil empire achieve control of the galaxy. But for a movie, in space, meant for children, I'd call him redeemed.

 

[Maxperson]

From what I remember, in EPIII, Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he will teach him how to commune with Qui-Gon in his exile ...

Yeah, but that could just mean that Obi-Wan could then call the force ghost Qui-Gon to talk to him, not that you need to know the technique to appear to someone without it. Luke didn't know the technique and he was able to speak to Obi-Wan. That proves that you don't need to know the technique to speak with a force ghost.

 

[WayneLigon]

Yeah, but that could just mean that Obi-Wan could then call the force ghost Qui-Gon to talk to him, not that you need to know the technique to appear to someone without it. Luke didn't know the technique and he was able to speak to Obi-Wan. That proves that you don't need to know the technique to speak with a force ghost.

One of the huge main problems in having any sort of discussion about Star Wars is that the prime source material is internally inconsistent, because Lucas.