Regarding ammo

[Mathew_Freeman]

Currently: For a thrown weapon, all enchanted thrown weapons automatically come with the returning enchantment (in addition to whatever other enchantment it has).

Proposed: I think that, for a ranged weapon, all enchanted ranged weapons should come with the unlimited ammunition enchantment (in addition to whatever other enchantment it has). (Note - this would not reduce the reload time.)

Note: I am aware that an item exists that already does this. But that enchantment is a ludicrously high cost and thus is one that few characters would ever want to pay for*.

I don't see what this unbalances and it eliminates the need to track ammo (and makes far more sense in the 4E world where ammo does not carry separate enchantments, unlike earlier editions).

I think this is an excellent idea, particularly with your querying the cost of the endless quiver. I'll pass this on to my group.

 

[Jhaelen]

*The endless quiver (AV) has the same function. But with its cost of 4200 gp, you would have to expend 84,000 crossbow bolts (or 126,000 arrows) before breaking even with this item. Even if you managed to expend 20 bolts or 30 arrows per encounter (a high estimation, imho) that means that it would take 4200 encounters before you broke even. If you somehow obtained one at 1st level and used it for every adventure you would reach 30th level long before you got your money's worth from this item and if the game allowed it you would get your money back when you reached 420th level. To put it another way, to break even you would have to average over 100 arrows per encounter throughout your entire career. In short - I don't understand the logic used in its pricing.

Nice way to look at this!

Of course pricing in 4E is just a function of an item's level - which is determined purely by the game designer's gut feeling at what level it's supposed to be appropriate for a pc. What levels do similar items have? Endless canteens or everful purses? There will be some (arbitrary) level at which it is no longer considered to be worthy of consideration for a pc.

The pricing of single-use items and rituals is similarly odd/problematic, imho.

 

[bagger245]

So, to use Blinding Barrage, I need to have 9 ammo?

 

[Ibixat]

So, to use Blinding Barrage, I need to have 9 ammo?

yes, or 1 thrown weapon.

 

[Bagpuss]

yes, or 1 thrown weapon.

magic thrown weapon

 

[Ibixat]

magic thrown weapon

hehe, nitpicker, I thought it was implied but ok =)

 

[Arkhail]

It's not like the Archer Ranger isn't the worst class feature to start with, they can actually run out of powers because of a lack of a mundane item unlike any other class?

…which is balanced by being able to use said powers out of the range of basically all the enemies melee and many of their ranged powers…IMO.

I make my players keep track of ammo. Also, I only give a 10% chance of recovering a usable arrow, which I think is generous since in the real world using an arrow in such a situation is usually gonna damage it in some way. Hit a rock and damage the head, tear off fletching, crack or break the shaft etc..

 

[Skallgrim]

Well, honestly, what I have been doing is forcing the PCs to track ammo. Thrown ammo can be recovered (provided that, for instance, they don't kill someone who falls down a mine shaft), but missile weapon ammo always goes away/breaks.

Then, the other thing I have done is consistently have some ranged weapon enemies. The halfling rogue was SO glad to see a goblin with a crossbow! She was all "Kill that guy and take his ammo!". She still had about 9 quarrels left, too!

This is a bit of fun for me and the players, it seems. It encourages them to think a little bit about their characters, and makes them pay a bit more attention to the opposition and their equipment (past the normal "loot and magic items" of course). That was always the one thing that I liked about GURPS over D&D. In most GURPS campaigns, taking the armor and weapons of your foe was a great idea. The armor and weapons were expensive, so you could get some great stuff, and you could reasonably sell it for a good amount. In D&D, it's pretty much "Meh, it's not magic". On the other hand, D&D is a bit more epic and fantastic, so it all balances out.

Admittedly, I don't have a ranged specialist, especially one who had multiple shot attacks (past the ranger with one double shot ranged attack). In that case, I might be a little more generous with ammo recovery. I would probably go with 50% of all shots as recoverable, but let every killing shot be a recoverable one, so that there would be another little reason to rejoice about each killing shot.

 

[Bagpuss]

…which is balanced by being able to use said powers out of the range of basically all the enemies melee and many of their ranged powers…IMO.

Ah right that's why the wizard runs out of Magic Missiles, and the Warlock runs out of Eldrich Blasts.

Most battlefields in Dungeons and Dragons are less than 10 squares across.

 

[Arkhail]

Ah right that's why the wizard runs out of Magic Missiles, and the Warlock runs out of Eldrich Blasts.

And they have 1/2 and 1/4 the range respectively (compared to longbow), less average damage, and no extra bonuses, movement abilities, benefits etc.. Either way you make a better point than most that oppose ammo tracking which essentially amounts to; "Keeping track of ammo is dumb 'cuz countiing is haaard."

Besides that, and this is just MY opinion, it seems to me that when you create a class with no significant fighting ability whatsoever and try to give them powers that can be used as ranged basic attacks, it is problematic. Within the powers system how could you give them the equivalent to the limits of finite ammo? There's no elegant way to do that that I can think of.

Most battlefields in Dungeons and Dragons are less than 10 squares across.

I won't argue about indoors but if that is true of outdoor battles (and I can't imagine how you could POSSIBLY know that) then most DMs suck. Especially if there is someone like an Archer Ranger in the party. Kinda sucks the fun right out of being a long range damage dealer doesn't it?