Regarding ammo

[evilgenius8000]

"Keeping track of ammo is dumb 'cuz countiing is haaard."

I don't think that's the sentiment at all, and I think you're being slightly insulting to insinuate that these people are complaining because they hate counting. It's inconvenient because, right in the middle of combat, the ranger goes "Oops, I'm out of arrows, and all my powers are meant for ranged weapons. Guess I'll sit this one out." That's not fun for anyone. And, to avoid this situation and go through any amount of combat over three or so encounters, an archer ranger would have to be carrying at least four quivers, if not more, which is approaching a situation where the realism you were trying to achieve by counting ammo becomes unrealistic.

 

[CapnZapp]

Any 4E ranger spams arrows much faster than a real archer ever would.

(Remember you need four arrows on average to down a standard monster. Not counting misses. To me, that seems a lot more than you'd need in real life. Not that you'd fight Ogres and Dragons in real life.)

So, yes, any competent Ranger would carry four Quivers instead of one. He'll also have a standing order to replenish all those arrows each and every time he's back in town. Arrows become trivially cheap very fast in D&D, if they aren't already at level 1.

Thus you'd end up with a meaningless counting that serves no real purpose.

- "34, 35, 36..."
- What is that?
- I'm counting the number of arrows I've used.
- How many did you start out with?
- 120.
- And what's the biggest number of spent arrows you've ever reached before getting back to town?
- 63. That was an unusually long haul.
- So why are you still counting them?

Just deduct 4 gp each time you get back to town, regardless of how many arrows you've actually used up. This way you can circumvent any zelous DM. Any time he asks you about your ammo usage, you simply say "less than 120". And he'll be hard pressed not to agree.

(Feel free to replace the numbers 120 and 4 gp with 300/10 gp or 3000/100 gp. Just some number that the DM can agree is larger than needed for even the longest adventure.)

The only time it makes sense to count ammunition is for special property ammunition, ammo with a significant cost. I'm aware of silvered ammo, which costs x500. Anything else?

 

[Jhaelen]

I won't argue about indoors but if that is true of outdoor battles (and I can't imagine how you could POSSIBLY know that) then most DMs suck. Especially if there is someone like an Archer Ranger in the party. Kinda sucks the fun right out of being a long range damage dealer doesn't it?

IIRC, the 4E DMG recommends to start encounters at a maximum range of 20 squares. And yes, that includes outdoor encounters.

Do DMs who follow the advice in the DMG suck?


Let me tell you a bit about my 3E game in an attempt to answer that question:

I have a ranger player who starts every combat by running away and hiding. He will stay hidden until all of the enemies have been engaged by other pcs. Then he'll start sniping, i.e. releasing a single shot and go back into hiding. Should an enemy get into charging range, he'll retreat to a 'safe' distance again.

Interestingly, all of the other players think, the ranger player sucks. As a DM I fail to see how the player is contributing to the party's success.

I also sometimes let encounters start at a long range. What will happen is this: The enemies get blasted to smithereens before getting close enough to do any (significant) damage. That's because of the spellcasters, mind you, not because of the ranger. Anyway, the melee combatants don't even bother to try to get closer, since the fight will be over in no time anyway. So basically, the encounter is meaningless and I might as well simply award free xp.

There's a third scenario: The party is attacked from a long range with superior firepower from enemies using hit & run tactics.
The combat took several hours to play out. All of the melee combatants were frustrated. Since the spellcasters were soon the main targets they eventually didn't dare to return fire. Out of sympathy since I wanted to get it over with I finally decided to let the enemies approach, despite their superior position.
I think it's safe to say that all players agreed that the encounter sucked.


My conclusion? The DMG advice is good advice.

 

[Bagpuss]

Just deduct 4 gp each time you get back to town, regardless of how many arrows you've actually used up. This way you can circumvent any zelous DM. Any time he asks you about your ammo usage, you simply say "less than 120". And he'll be hard pressed not to agree.

Yeah but I personally don't like the mental image of my archer walking round over laden with quivers. Hence I'd never want to imaging him carrying more than one.

 

[Bagpuss]

I won't argue about indoors

Well to be fair the last battle we had in a dungeon the room was over 15 squares long, and we were pinned in the doorway by their melee guys, so even my elven cleric switched to his at one point longbow.

Still we didn't track arrows as three of the opponents were Hobgoblin Archers, so you can assume you replenish your stocks from them.

To be real and have reliable access to his powers an archer ranger would need to carry four quivers which use looks dumb.

To look practical he'd only have one quiver but run the risk of running out of arrows and being a spare wheel.

So in order to not look dumb but still be effective we don't track ammo. It's assumed that in an extended rest that an Archer Ranger has enough skills in fletching to replenish his stocks (even if that isn't realistic).

 

[CapnZapp]

So in order to not look dumb but still be effective we don't track ammo.

Exactly.

 

[Bagpuss]

just to be clear by look dumb, I'm not saying we have difficulty counting above 30.

 

[Obryn]

I started out requiring my Ranger player to track ammo. I gave up pretty quickly; unless the PCs are far, far away from any kind of civilization, and unless they never meet creatures with arrows (unlikely in 4e), he'll always have enough to get through until the next time he gets to civilization.

Instead of house-rule it, or ignore it, I'm just going to plant an Endless Quiver in the next appropriate encounter. It'll make him happy, and it'll be that much less bookkeeping.


Now, with that said, 1e is a lot more about resource management and not-having arrows doesn't completely hose anyone. I'm requiring players to keep close track of ammunition in my 1e game.

-O

 

[Bagpuss]

Instead of house-rule it, or ignore it, I'm just going to plant an Endless Quiver in the next appropriate encounter. It'll make him happy, and it'll be that much less bookkeeping.

That's so over priced if we came across one we would sell it or break it down to make a new item.

 

[Obryn]

That's so over priced if we came across one we would sell it or break it down to make a new item.

(Un?)fortunately, my players have little concept of "item value" and haven't yet sold a magic item. I think they'll hold onto it. In fact, I'm fairly certain the player will consider it well worth every penny.

-O