Relics & Rituals: spells balanced?

[James McMurray]

I don't have the full rules on spellfire 3e, so I can't present a 3e argument. I do know that it allows you to store magical energy with little to no negative side effects, and release that energy in destructive blasts.

How is "destructive blasts" passive? And what is this other condition that makes it incidental at higher levels?

 

[jasamcarl]

Well......

Oh, I don't know, perhaps its the fact that it does an inefficient 1d6 damage per spell level while requiring the spellfire user to make a ranged touch attack while the target also gets a reflex save on top of that, and at high levels, they are often able to overcome it; On a spell level by spell level basis its far more beneficial for a mage to use a high level evocation spell or even a low level magic missle than to waste that 'charging' a Spellfire user, while a fighter will deal much more consistent damage with his melee weapon. Its passive insofar as a DM who chooses to use a large number of encounters of variable difficulty will make any use of 'excess' spells on the part of the wizard, who has to trade more effective spells that MIGHT be lost that day for ineffective persistent spellfire charges, very risky(This is why MaoF gives the DM direct discretion over the feat). The DM having SUCH a direct impact on its value makes spellfire passive. Absorbing enemy spells essentially means risking or 'wasting' a precious round of combat on a readied action, so in short term combat, direct use of that action usually amounts to nothing more than a drag. Spellfire can either be rather strong at low levels if the dm plans around major encounters, or very weak at both high levels (where merely using the ability to attack takes a great oppurtunity cost) and in campaigns and published dungeons with many disparate encounters.

 

[jasamcarl]

Oh....

And may i add conscerning combat pacing that most dms go to neither extreme, in which case, spellfire may be usefull at certain times moreso than others; the overall effect, though, is that its utility is probably actually in line with other 'self-contained' feats (i.e. others that that don't act as reqs for other strong feats/prcs and whose effects are not cumulative).

My two cents.

 

[Warchild]

spellfire blues

Well, speaking as a DM that HAD been running a character with the spellfire feat and levels of the prestige class. Don't believe the hype!! The character was dropped by the player because he just couldn't keep up with the other players. I'm serious. And there was no "DM out to get him" stuff either. They were a 12th level party and the dwarven fighter and human fireball,er wizard constantly made fun of him. At that level, let me also tell you that many creatures/npc baddies have either decent ref saves, fire resistance(half of spell fire is fire damage), or decent touch ac's. Let me also say this, imagine a character that has spents feat(s) and invested in several levels of a prestige class that amounts to the ability to cast 4 15D6 fireballs (can anyone say empowered fireball from a 9th or 10th level wizard??? i knew you could), or even 6 10d6, 10 6D6, etc, in which they must make an attack roll, the creature gets a save vs 20(dc doesn't ever go up), and can absorb half the damage if he has fire resistance(do you know how many MM creatures and NPC wizard/clerics have fire/elemental resistance. plenty it turns out).
So the spellfirer launch its supposedly massive attack, at least one of which odds say misses, 1 or 2 of which usually gets saved or resisted against (for half or even less), and one nails a target either messing it up or at least severly damages the target. Then watch the now fairly useless character jump in the bushes in fear, because the rest of the party isn't going to spend 3-6 rounds in the middle of combat trying to fill him up again!!

The feat is over-powered, but often not worth the damn trouble, but the prestige class ends up damn near useless, or laughably less powered than the other equal leveled characters(most definitely WIZARDS, who can do the same, but much much more!!!). Even of you try to twink it out. Which the player actually thought about, then just dropped the character. BTW, This is my WW convert who has no love for combat either!! He just said to me "Hey, look. Not even I am that much a self-sadist!! jeez!"
In a setting of relatively, um....High powered prestige classes.....this one ain't it!!

Whew. Was that rant?

 

[reapersaurus]

Re: Why you throw Smite?

I like the smite spell, what's so wrong with it? Paladins get the almighty d6 and this spell gives a lot less than that!

Sure it has potential, but I almost guarantee it will be used less as levels increase (except maybe for magic item creation)

huh?

 

[Nightfall]

In another vein...

Well it's come and gone folks but I managed to SQUEAK under the wire. So just have to see if any of my stuff got in. *prays that his Durlock stuff made it* R&R2 baby.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Warchild, for future reference, a "self-sadist" would be a masochist.

Anyway, some are balanced, some aren't. Look at everything carefully and you should be all right. Almost all of the Paladin spells are excellent, however. To find out where the unbalancing comes, check out Wulf's story hour, the finale of Nightfang Spire.

 

[Omegium]

One other spell to be careful with is Sacrifice Spell. Although it isn't too terribly bad by itself in the hands of a wizard, when maximized by a sorceror it can be devestating. It allows you to sacrifice other memorized spells or spell slots for a bolt that eals 1d8 per level of slots dropped. The main problem with it is that it lasts one round per level, meaning that if a 14th level sorceror maximizes it once, he can do 112 damage per round for 14 rounds (or for as long as his spell slots last at least).

Is that so powerful? If you can sacrifice a lvl 3 lightning bolt, to do 3d8 damage, or cast the lightning bolt, for 10d6 to more creatures, what do you do?
Unless you are a wizard with a lot of non combat spells prepared and in the middle of a fight, or a very badly designed sorcerer, I don't see any reasons to use it.

 

[Darklone]

Back to Rituals & Relics

I like that book and most of the spells used to be weaker than comparable Core rule spells but have a lot more flavor. Flame Bolt for example in comparison to Magic Missile.

Many of the cleric spells are too powerful since they only emulate class abilities like rage or smite. I would perhaps grant those spells to a cleric as reward for something.

Same as someone else already wrote: Druids and clerics grow more powerful if you enhance their spelllists no matter how balanced those spells are. Keep that in mind. As for spell fire or that spellswap to damage thing:

balanced. Only thing I didn't like abuot spellfire: You could ask your buddies everytime you got a day off to fuel up your reserves.

 

[James McMurray]

For spellfire: It sounds like they've changed it in 3e to make it more balanced. However, what about when ou've got a character that uses spellfire as a backup. For example, can't you have a fighter with spellfire, who uses it as his ranged attack? Is there any limit to how long you can store the energy?

Man I wich I had an FRCS so I could talk more about this.

Omegium: The sorceror in my group is far from poorly designed. Him taking Sacrifice spell has freed him from having to take a lot of higher level offenseive spells. He started with magic missile. He then got lightning bolt, then finally sacrifice spell. Combined with maximize spell, he can use a 7th level slot for massive damage. Even just using a 4th level slot (which he had to do before he hit 14th obviously: 12 or 13d8 of force damage, no to-hit roll required, reflex save for half, is nothing to scoff at.

With his 30 charisma (18 base, 2 from being an aasimar, 2 from age, 2 from levels, and +6 from a cloak) he has 185 spell levels to dump. Granted, trading in a single lightning bolt for a single sacrifice bolt isn't cost effective, but trading in higher level slots (Mordenkinen's Magnificent Mansion is his only 7th level spell, and Greater Dispelling / Permanent Image are his 6th level spells) is definitely worth it. If I hadn't removed the duration, he'd be able to do 112 damage per round (DC 23 for half) for 12 rounds straight.

A final thing about comparing the sacrifice spell to lightning bolt: Sacrifice Spell is force, and thus effective against incorporeal creatures. Lightning Bolt is electrical, thus has a chance of being resisted or immune to. Sacrifice spel takes more energy, but also does d8s instead of d6s (max of 15 instead of 10).

Overall, as I've said, the spell itself isn't very broken, but can be overpowering when combining its duration with maximize spell.

To anyone thinking about getting the book: I'd highly recommend downloading the errtta as well, as it clears up a few issues (limiting flame bolt to 9 bolts for one. It also includes costs for the magic items.

Billybeanbag: Um... What d6? And also, why would it get used less at higher levels? Considering it scales with level as far as extra damage goes, I'd think it would get used more. I removed it (not because of power, but because it takes away too much from paladins.