Remind me again why I should like the PHB II?

[Hussar]

A Bluff could convince someone that you are the greatest threat on the field, but it would be up to them whether they should attack you or someone else. It keeps going back to that thing... Bluff just says, "you are convinced." Knight's challenge says, "You must do this... because it's what your character would do."

That's an incredibly fine hair to split.

If you are convinced that X is the greatest threat on the field, it is not unreasonable that you would target that threat. "Hrm, should I attack that dragon or that kobold cowering behind him?" is usually not a big choice.

How about this example? Your character is a NG elven wizard whose family and neighbors were masacred by an evil warlord. After months of stalking and skirmishing with his followers, you catch up to him with your party. You bellow, "Now, Garun, I have found you, and this day you will answer for your crimes."

"Not if I have anything to say about it," says a knight, stepping in front of him. You've never seen this guy before in your life.

You're holding a scroll of disintegrate.

Nothing in the Knight's Challenge forces the caster to use that scroll. It is not mind control. The wizard fries the knight with a fireball and catches both.

But, feel free to continue to make up entirely contrived examples that would never see the light of day in a campaign. Why is the PC alone? Our NG elven wizard is facing off with the BBEG by himself and you're complaining about the knight being there? Where's the rest of the party?

Never mind that our putative elf wizard has to fail his saving throw as well.

I would also suggest you read the Intimidate skill again. There's more to it than simply making someone shaken if you take the time.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm glad that content was not in the PHB, as I found it 100% useless. A version that was maybe 10% the page count might be appropriate for a Dummies book or a web article.

Sorry, I have a hate-on for those sections. Least useful content I've ever seen in a D&D book, hands down.

Oh, I dislike the sections in general myself -- seeing them over and over in a decade's worth of White Wolf core book revisions will do that -- but I think they're a necessary evil. That said, I'm in favor of a streamlined version written by an ace at such advice, instead of the standard flabby writing these sections seem to get.

 

[pawsplay]

That's an incredibly fine hair to split.

Perhaps. But to me, the central premise of an RPG is that you get to make decisions for your character. And in a D&D context, you are not normally compelled by any force or motivation to make your character's free will decisions other than you choose. The ability to bend someone's will is magic.

If you are convinced that X is the greatest threat on the field, it is not unreasonable that you would target that threat. "Hrm, should I attack that dragon or that kobold cowering behind him?" is usually not a big choice.

Except in this case, it's a kobold knight. Or something.

Nothing in the Knight's Challenge forces the caster to use that scroll. It is not mind control. The wizard fries the knight with a fireball and catches both.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. He would like to use that scroll on his foe. One failed save, and it's all over. Fireball is unlikely to have that effect.

But, feel free to continue to make up entirely contrived examples that would never see the light of day in a campaign. Why is the PC alone? Our NG elven wizard is facing off with the BBEG by himself and you're complaining about the knight being there? Where's the rest of the party?

Never mind that our putative elf wizard has to fail his saving throw as well.

It's not a contrived example. It's simply an example, very simple, very clear, and I didn't write a whole novel to explain how they got where they are. If it makes you happy, I can describe the dwarven warrior in the party with powerful charge, the half-gold dragon sorcere, and the gnome ranger also with him, who don't want to be fireballed or whatever but they really aren't important to my example becaues we're talking about what one character wants to do in one action.

I would also suggest you read the Intimidate skill again. There's more to it than simply making someone shaken if you take the time.

It can also temporarily cause someone to act as if they are Friendly, which we have already covered in discovering the Diplomacy skill.

 

[Agent Oracle]

You're holding a scroll of disintegrate.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. He would like to use that scroll on his foe. One failed save, and it's all over. Fireball is unlikely to have that effect.

It's not a contrived example. It's simply an example, very simple, very clear, and I didn't write a whole novel to explain how they got where they are. If it makes you happy, I can describe the dwarven warrior in the party with powerful charge, the half-gold dragon sorcere, and the gnome ranger also with him, who don't want to be fireballed or whatever but they really aren't important to my example becaues we're talking about what one character wants to do in one action.

I fail to see how this situation is any different from any of a myriad of other scenarios wherein the BBEG is discovered, and then one of his lieutenants steps up to deal with the party. (sure, normally it's a summoned monster or a group of expendable minions, but you get my point)

All your wizard has to do is show preference in removing the knight from the battlefield. IF his challenge worked on you (it's a will save, and wizards have the BEST will saves) you don't have to use the scroll on him. you also don't have to use your A-List spells on him. You just have to get him out of your hair the easiest way possible.

I propose a Resilient Sphere (reflex save) or a Force cage (no save). If he happens to be inside of either one of those effects, further hostilities against him would be fruitless,since nothing gets in, or out of those spells. And since the knight's challenge does not work if it's impossible to engage him, then there's no further issue. With the Knight neutralized, you proceed to zap the BB with the disintegrate spell.

And frankly, it would probably be wiser to use the scroll of disintegrate on the Knight in place of the Big Bad, (since Fighters and other warlordy-types have great fortitude saves, whereas Knights suffer from the worst fortitude save in the game) though YMMV

And, just for clarity's sake, which challenge is this knight giving? A fighting challenge? A Test of mettle? Or a Daunting challenge? Or don't you know the difference?

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not arguing that you have options. The issue is the options you don't have. Why does the knight, of all the classes in D&D, have the power to tell someone when they feel they must answer a challenge? Why don't wizards have "wizard's challenge?"

The skills Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate have all been written to allow you to decide about the voluntary decisions you make. Of all the non-supernatural abilities, only the knight's various abilities and the Goad feat, as far as I'm familiar, are able to circumvent a character's decision of their best interest.

 

[MarkB]

I'm not arguing that you have options. The issue is the options you don't have. Why does the knight, of all the classes in D&D, have the power to tell someone when they feel they must answer a challenge? Why don't wizards have "wizard's challenge?"

Why don't Fighters have Uncanny Dodge? Why don't Bards have Find Familiar? Why don't Aristocrats get Wildshape?

The skills Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate have all been written to allow you to decide about the voluntary decisions you make. Of all the non-supernatural abilities, only the knight's various abilities and the Goad feat, as far as I'm familiar, are able to circumvent a character's decision of their best interest.

Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. The Challenge mechanics leave enough options open to the player.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Oh, you mean that idea that Magic: The Gathering started back in the Urza's and Mercadian Masques sets? They've had spells that cost more to cast if you used the full version, and had less of a cost if you cast the lower-powered "short" version. A very nice idea for spells, truthfully. With the exception of the casting time, Monte Cook's AU diminished and enhanced spells struck a chord with me in this vein; magic that can be either "deliberate" or "hasty."

They had that in Megaman 2, with the Fire weapon (the longer you held the button, the bigger the fireball

As to PHBII, I'll probably take a good look at it, because I'm a sucker for new Full classes.

AR

 

[Nellisir]

How about this example? Your character is a NG elven wizard whose family and neighbors were masacred by an evil warlord. After months of stalking and skirmishing with his followers, you catch up to him with your party. You bellow, "Now, Garun, I have found you, and this day you will answer for your crimes."

"Not if I have anything to say about it," says a knight, stepping in front of him. You've never seen this guy before in your life.

You're holding a scroll of disintegrate.

I cast prismatic spray.

 

[ephemeron]

How about this example? Your character is a NG elven wizard whose family and neighbors were masacred by an evil warlord. After months of stalking and skirmishing with his followers, you catch up to him with your party. You bellow, "Now, Garun, I have found you, and this day you will answer for your crimes."

"Not if I have anything to say about it," says a knight, stepping in front of him. You've never seen this guy before in your life.

You're holding a scroll of disintegrate.

But surely the correct answer is also the obvious one -- "I tell Mr. Who-Is-This-Guy 'You don't," and then disintegrate Mr. Evil Warlord"?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I can't comment too much since I don't own the PHB II but from what I have heard about the Retraining rules it seems like it could be a power gamer's delight. Pick things that are more powerful at lower levels and then swap them out for things that work better at higher levels.

How do they explain how a character magically changes his levels and abilities? What penalties, if any, are there for retraining?

Olaf the Stout

So, in reality you do not think that people lose old skills and gain new ones? I do beg to differ.

I used to be able to read German, now, for the most part, I cannot.
I used to be able to read Latin, now, I can only read it a little and have to look up words, and have difficulties with the grammar. (Damned, sideways grammar...)
I did not know how use a desktop publisher, now I do...
I did not know how to run role playing games, now I do... people do this all the time. That which is not used is often forgotten, and you can indeed teach an old dog new tricks. It is merely the game acknowledging some. So I guess that the real world is populated by powergamers....

The Auld Grump, sheesh...