Remind me again why I should like the PHB II?

[Mouseferatu]

Something like that. We're still talking about a non-magical effect that can control someone... even if the context makes it a nonsensical decision. Imagine, for instance, two knights standing apart. One of them challenges the opponent, who advances toward him. The next round, the other one challenges him, causing him to backtrack...

I'm curious. Do you use the Intimidate skill in your games? How about Diplomacy? Both are non-magical ways of influencing another character's behavior.

I was looking the other day. They can retain their abilities if their alignment is lawful. But I think you have to actually be LG to take levels in the class. I could be wrong, though.

Nope. Any lawful will do.

I suppose. But basically, he's as tough as a barbarian or a dwarven defender. This guy is tougher than the Fighter, who pretty much only fights.

He's tougher, but he's not as versatile in combat. Seems an okay trade.

I'm picturing a 1st level knight... without chainmail, a heavy warhorse with barding, a lance, a sword, a heavy steel shield. Just some dude in scale mail with a morningstar and a backpack, named Sir Fred d'Garage-Sale.

It's entirely possible. A starting knight is still a starting character.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm curious. Do you use the Intimidate skill in your games? How about Diplomacy? Both are non-magical ways of influencing another character's behavior.

They don't dictate your character's behaviors, however. Intimidate, at best, influences your involuntary behavior (causing you to become shaken). Intimidate, as an influence skill, or Diplomacy, can only improve someone's effective attitude. You cannot tell them what to do. PCs cannot use Diplomacy to make the King open his treasure vault and give them his money, nor can an NPC use Diplomacy to cause a paladin to swear allegiance to a half-fiend cultist.

Intimidate only indicates to what extent your PC is fallible. It does not, at any time, tell you what decisions you must make for your character. Your character, as you conceived them, is still yours.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Intimidate only indicates to what extent your PC is fallible. It does not, at any time, tell you what decisions you must make for your character. Your character, as you conceived them, is still yours.

I'd argue that, for the most part, the same could be said of the knight's challenge. It doesn't force you to attack if you weren't going to. It doesn't force you to close to melee. It doesn't force you to use mundane attacks instead of spells.

All it says is that if you choose to attack someone, you choose the knight as your preferred target (or one of your targets, if you're casting a spell that affects more than one person). And if anyone else attacks you, even that effect is broken.

It's a more specific influence than Intimidate, yes, but it hardly takes away what makes your character yours.

 

[MarkB]

The Knight's Challenge is, in fact, closer to Bluff than Intimidate. The Knight puts on a display of prowess that convinces his opponents to consider him a serious threat. If he does it well enough, he convinces some of them - those who fail their saves - that he is, in fact, the most serious threat on the field, and that they should consider him a priority. And he only gives them that conviction up until other opponents prove themselves to be a greater threat.

 

[pawsplay]

A Bluff could convince someone that you are the greatest threat on the field, but it would be up to them whether they should attack you or someone else. It keeps going back to that thing... Bluff just says, "you are convinced." Knight's challenge says, "You must do this... because it's what your character would do."

 

[buzz]

Unless you're planning to throw lots of NPC knights at your PCs, why does this matter?

 

[Agent Oracle]

Something like that. We're still talking about a non-magical effect that can control someone... even if the context makes it a nonsensical decision. Imagine, for instance, two knights standing apart. One of them challenges the opponent, who advances toward him. The next round, the other one challenges him, causing him to backtrack...

Sorry, the rules contradict you on this. Page 27 first paragraph.

Whether a creature fails or succeeds on it's save against your challenge, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day

That includes OTHER knight's challenges. So, that kinda breaks the idea of calling back & forth.

 

[paulsometimes]

If anything, this thread has convinced me I need to be picking up the PHBII sometime soon.

 

[Banshee16]

So, effectively, it's a fighter with Iron Will and Toughness? That would pretty much cover everthing listed there.

I'm not meaning to hack on this idea, but, a "fighting guy on a horse" with no SU abilities is a fighter. Or maybe a fighter with a couple of extra class skills. In any case, it's not like we need an entirely new class for this. The Knight, at least, is not a fighter with a different name.

Nope, he's not a "fighter on a horse". He's more like a paladin.....it's a warrior-type class that is not a pure fighter, and has abilities tailored to his niche. Many of them are similar to the ranger's combat style feats, where he gets a choice of two at particular levels.

I don't want to post all the abilities on a message board, as I'm sure that's not quite legal.

He gets more skill points, and gets a bunch of extra social skills, which fighters don't get. He gets to focus his abilities with certain skills, gets the leadership feat as a bonus, and a bunch of bonus feats tailored to mounted combat. He gets bonuses with particular weapons, the D12, better will save than a fighter, a code of honour and behaviour he must adhere to, and some other stuff.

I don't know how else to describe it without just listing abilities.....but aside from stuff which, yes, fighters can do, like some of the bonus feats, the things which differentiate him are:

1-code of honour
2-Lawful alignment
3-Better will save
4-A bunch of extra social-oriented skills as class skills.
5-More skill points per level.
6-Special abilities against fear effects, which he can also use to give courage to allies

The one thing I was surprised by is that his horse doesn't get tougher with levels like the paladin's. Of course, the Knight class from Legends of Excalibur has that, as well as bonuses with wearing heavy armor which are unavailable to fighters.

Green Ronin's cavalier can get bonuses with heavy armour, but has to spend feats to do so.

Green Ronin also included some cool prestige classes, like the Knight of Quality, where characters get a pool of "honour points" every time they do something in line with their code of conduct (ie. protecting an innocent, honourable conduct, donating to the poor, etc.). They can then use those points to activate special abilities.

Banshee

 

[pawsplay]

That includes OTHER knight's challenges. So, that kinda breaks the idea of calling back & forth.

How about this example? Your character is a NG elven wizard whose family and neighbors were masacred by an evil warlord. After months of stalking and skirmishing with his followers, you catch up to him with your party. You bellow, "Now, Garun, I have found you, and this day you will answer for your crimes."

"Not if I have anything to say about it," says a knight, stepping in front of him. You've never seen this guy before in your life.

You're holding a scroll of disintegrate.